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Is Philosophy Relevant Qua Real Life?
 Completely Relevant. 35%  35%  [ 6 ]
 Mostly Relevant. 18%  18%  [ 3 ]
 It Depends. 29%  29%  [ 5 ]
 Mostly Irrelevant. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
 Completely Irrelevant. 18%  18%  [ 3 ]
 Who is this Phil O. Sophy, and why should I care? 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 17

magz
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19 Aug 2022, 10:00 am

Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
. . . creating an environment for rational discussion on metaphysics, morality and purposes is a serious challenge in real life. Personally, I yearn for it.

[opinion=mine]

Personally, I believe creating an environment for rational discussion on metaphysics, morality, and purpose requires an initial tabla rasa condition and a subsequent build-up of rationally validated statements, without influence by politics, pre-judgement, or religion.

[/opinion]

Hard to achieve. Possibly impossible.
People always have various pre-judgements, most of them completely unconcious. Our intuition is calibrated to our experiences and we are not aware of it until we're confronted with some undeniable reality exceeding it.

That's why it's so hard to imagine quantum mechanics. Our brains aren't tabula rasa, they are calibrated to function as humans on Earth, with particular senses, particular sensory processing, cultural contexts and everything being a human includes.


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19 Aug 2022, 10:07 am

magz wrote:
Our brains aren't tabula rasa, they are calibrated to function as humans on Earth, with cultural contexts and everything being a human includes.
Yes, and that is why (for example) it took me decades to properly envision the exterior of a "wormhole"; from this:

Image

To this:

Image


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magz
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19 Aug 2022, 10:13 am

^ Yes, general relativity is another area where we have to admit that use of common sense has to be limited to situations of common experience - but its predictions are needed even for the GPS in my phone to work properly.


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IsabellaLinton
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19 Aug 2022, 10:24 am

Thanks Znof. ^^^

My partner and I just watched your video (yeah, because we're that cerebral ...) It was interesting bc he's from Vancouver and he worked with at-risk inner-city youth, particularly the Indigenous community. It was relevant for me having dated a homeless man (he was in a shelter, not on the street), and because my son was homeless in BC for several months without telling me. He had a great job but couldn't afford housing and lived in an abandoned vehicle. TMI.

Anyway, thank you. It hit us both pretty hard but we both appreciate honest documentaries. I can see Rawlsian influence even though it's difficult to implement in established and impoverished communities. Society won't get anywhere without idealists like ourselves advocating for human dignity, and fostering informed empathy through experimental research like Misha's.



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19 Aug 2022, 11:20 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Imho, in past centuries, the way to criticize the dominant religion has been to establish epistemology and such - but eventually, science did away with mystical religions and our dominant religion today is not mystic, but rational.

Depends where you live. The above is certainly not true in the Bible Belt here in the U.S.A.


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magz
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20 Aug 2022, 3:59 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
Imho, in past centuries, the way to criticize the dominant religion has been to establish epistemology and such - but eventually, science did away with mystical religions and our dominant religion today is not mystic, but rational.
Depends where you live. The above is certainly not true in the Bible Belt here in the U.S.A.
Sad because that's the less known aspect of Copernican Revolution: when the authority (mainly the Bible in his times, but also ancient philosophers) contradicts the observations, giving observations the priority was actually the most revolutionary move of Copernicus.

I realized it when I saw contemporary criticism to De revolutionibus orbium coelestium, i.e. from Martin Luther:
Quote:
People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon ... This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.

An epistemological revolution happened some 500 years ago, leading to founding of what we today understand as "science".


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aghogday
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20 Aug 2022, 9:42 am



Ever Since Thanksgiving Day of 2010, Yep, November 25, 2010,
i've Probably Linked More Peer Reviewed Scientific Research Papers

Than Anyone Here; Per Sheer Volume of Posting, Hehe of Course too,
As i Pursued A Great Deal of Research to Remedy The Issues That 'Autism'
And 'Bi-Polar Non-Specified' Gave me in the Previous 50 Years of my Life.

i Was Successful, in Bringing Balance, Joy, Love; And Naked, Enough, Whole,
Complete to my Life Yet NOT WITHIN JUST THE CONFINES OF 'SCIENTISM' True

As That 'Philosophy/Religion/Politics' Relates to Materially Reducing Existence To What May
Only Be Measured Empirically AND EXTERNALLY through Observing And 'Rulers' Big and

Small Enough to Measure Reality As It Stands, Small and Big Enough to See With Empirical

Devices of Measure.

One Such Material Device is
'The Sugar' Pill Used in Modern Medicine
to Determine if 'Medicine' Is More Powerful
Than The Power of Suggestion in Hope, Belief, And Faith
That One is Gonna Get HeaLeD From Whatever Malady They Have in Life.

Guess What, the Placebo effect is More than the Materially Reduced Part (Sugar Pill) That
Science Uses Now to Measure What Medicine Does With or Without the Power of Suggestion
That Brings Healing That Science Internally Within the Human Being Has no Way to Empirically Measure.

Guess What, Hypnosis Works in A Similar Way and Yes Insurance Companies Cover it As a Valuable Therapy
For Both Psychological/Physical Issues in Ridding Oneself of Pain and Even Life-Long Addictions to Cigarettes

That Really

Works as i've Had Several Elder
FRiEnDS Who Were Successful
Kicking the Butt of Cigarette Addiction
Life-Long With Just One Frigging Session of Hypnosis.

Yet Again, Science Doesn't Have A Tool to Empirically Measure
The Process That Happens Within the Human Conscious And Subconscious
Mind that Constitutes around 95 Percent of Our Minds to Make This Healing Work.

However, Again, The Empirical Results of Healing are Clear; And True As Far as the
Placebo Effect, No Matter What the Tool That May Be Used As Far As 'Sugar Pills' Go Works as

Well, in Terms of Little Wafers of Bread And Sips of Wine That Mythically Change Bread into the
Super Hero Body of Jesus and Wine into His Blood Literally So As 30 Percent of Catholics Still Really

Believe it as Well as the Folks in Charge Who Wear Funny Looking Robes And Hats too Up Front Doing
A 'Real Occult Mystical' Ritual as Basically Doctor's With 'Sugar Pills' That In Some Cases Do Bring cases of

So-Called Terminal Disease
into the Files of Unexplained
Remission From Terminal Disease.

It's True, Through the Wonderful and
Fabulous Tools of Science and the 'Scientism
Of Materially Reducing Existence' We Can See Practically
to 'The Beginning of Time of the So-called Big Bang'

Yet Science Still Can't Empirically Measure the
Essence of Our Existence for Real; Yes, How the
Human Subconscious And Conscious Aware Minds

Actually Even Come into
Being As A Full Process Now;

Yet It's True, Without Science
Ever Existing At All in Terms of
A Discrete Measuring Tool Like the Scientific

Method We Exist Hehe as Our Conscious and
Subconscious Minds Have Always Done With or Without

'Rulers'

Insufficient
To Describe How
We Even Really Tick
Within to Survive and Thrive.

My Philosophy is Balancing Art and Reason
For What is Typically Described in Farther Away
Eastern Philosophies as Yin and Yang; True the
Overall Philosophy of Balancing Right and Left Brain

Processes of Doing Reality is Nothing New in the Most
Ancient Philosophies That Still Exist on EartH As Far As

How Humans Navigate THeir Life in or out of Balance AS Such.

Yet Guess What, Even Among Very Respected Individuals in the Ivory
Towers of Reason From Quantum Mechanics And Scientists Associated

And The Creme of the Crop of True Scholars Like Iain McGilchrist, Oxford
Scholar in Literature, Psychiatrist, Philosopher of the Mind, Researcher and Writer;

Yes Even Western Civilization at the Top of the Bottom is Finally Coming to A Fine Enough
Balance in Research to Finally Hold Hands With Both Reason and Art of the Human Condition.

i Healed myself First With A Free Autotelic Moving Meditation of Free Dance And Free Song of Poetry
Just Like This And The Reward Was only a 'Sugar Pill' in 'Essence' of Every Move of Dance And Word of Song

in Poetry
in Eternal
Bliss Now For Real

in Balance of Effortless
Ease As 'They' 'Sing' About 'Wu Wei'
And That 'Tao of the Dao' As Well.

It's True Science Has a Term for it
too in Secular Ways of 'Autotelic Meditating Flow';

Which Only means Integrating the Mind and Body
Latitudinally From Head to Toe and Longitudinally
in Left and Brain Processing Ways and Sure in Terms
Of Above and Below of Cerebellum Below and Cerebrum Above too...

As that Relates to the Science That Our Cerebellum Not Only Controls
Movement Yet Enhances our Social Empathic Potentials too as Of Course

That's How i Got Literally A REAL Prescription for Moving Meditation of Dance
Everywhere i Go From my Doctor as It is Used for Emotional Regulation and
Sensory Integration to Heal Disorders/Symptoms Common in Both Autism and

Bi-Polar Disorders
As Well; Voila,

Intuition, All
Instinctual and
Innate Worked for
me to Go Back to A
Day of Free Dance And Song NOW

Same As Our Ancestors Always
Practiced A Philosophy, Religion,
And Politics of Dance That Needed No

WORDS AT ALL TO WORK; However, the Song
Came Next Connecting Words to Emotions and
Senses in Poetry of Oral TRADITION that Spread

Yet Sadly Eventually Got Reduced to Written Words
And Idol Words/Devices Materially Reduced Like 'Sugar Pills'

Forgetting
The Real Power
Within of Hope,
Faith, And Belief

IN ESSENCE FOR REAL

In Terms of Human Emotions;
Yes, Feelings and Senses In Synergy
That Truly Heal And Balance Our Lives
Within And Each Other So Far away from

A REAL 'TRUMP VOODOO' OF THE POWER OF
NEGATIVITY THAT BONDS AND BINDS OVER THE

NOCEBO EFFECT THAT HARMS WITHIN AND OTHERS TOO...

INDEED THERE
ARE TWO

PATHS
TO TAKE:

CREATIVITY THRIVING IN POSITIVE WAYS OF LIFE
BUILDING DREAMS OF HEALING AND LOVING LIFE

COMING TO FRUITION REAL NOW'

OR THE DESTRUCTION
OF THE WITHIN WITH
NEGATIVITY, OTHERS,

AND PERHAPS MUCH OF
NATURE GONE AWAY IN
THE IMBALANCE HUMANS
BRING SO MATERIALLY REDUCED
AND LOST FROM BALANCE OF THRIVING New Now;

Indeed, There isn't Much Difference Between
'Scientism' And Catholicism; Both Use 'Sugar Pills'

And Both Are Ignorant to the Potentials of Humans Thriving
in Balance Where The Sanctity of Breathing Life Now Becomes

More Important

Than Who Has
the Best Idol
Words to Describe
The Essence of What Truly Works;

Indeed, Both Catholicism and
Scientism Risk Ivory Towers
So Separated From What Human Nature

Truly Is...

Indeed,
Both Art
And Reason
To Truly Survive and ThriVE iN Balance New Now.

i Listen to Sources of Art And Science All Around
the Globe Each and Every Day; i Do Not Restrict my
Study to Only Those i Agree With in Life; i LEarn As

Much From the
NaySayers

As i Do

From the Yay Sayers, indeed;

Yet What i Truly See Around the
Globe is A Synergy of Minds Like
Neurons And Waves of Mind Coming
Together Ocean Whole Both in Ways

of Latitude

And Longitude

GlobAlly Wide Now too;

Indeed, We Can And Will
Thank 'The Revenge of the
Nerds' and Folks Largely With
Systemizing Minds Who May
Lack the Riches of Right Brain
Hemisphere Ways of Healing Life is Good Art,

Who Have Prepared the Bones of the Information
Highway to Connect The World Again For Real Flesh and Blood

Nurture/

Nature in
Dance and
Song Free Again...

It's true There May Be
A 'Tipping Point of Negativity
in the World' Yet There is Also

A Potential of A 'Tipping Point of Positivity' too

That Changes the World into An Experience Most Folks
Have Never Had

Before...

Meh,
Works
FoR Me;
my Opinion
(Philosophy/
Politics/Religion
In Bold of Course);

Indeed i Find the Idea
That Humans May Separate
Philosophy/Politics/Religion Amusing At Best Indeed

Yet of Course That is What Materially Reducing Existence Does

So Unnaturally
of/OFF Course too
Out of Balance

As if THere is One Law of Nature to Survive and Thrive it Most Definitely is
FRiEnDS With Gravity in Balance; Sure, Verily i See No Problem With Calling

'God Gravity'

Either

in Metaphor
At Least With SMiLes...

Yet On the Other 'Hands of Science,'
All the Professionals Who Took Care of
me Before and After i Healed myself All Naturally
Then From Both the Negative Symptoms of Autism
And Bi-Polar (Along Then Too With 17 Other Medical
Disorders YeS in Regard to Pain and Numb) THEY ALL Agree

'My Sugar Pills' at

'Essence' Worked

(Even the AQ Autism Quotient Scan
Moving from 45 to 11; And EQ Emotional
Quotient Test Moving from the Mid 50's
to Mid 90's in Epigenetic and Neuroplastic
Affect/Effect in the Year 2013, in July Then
When i Healed All the Pain and Numb Drifting Away For Real;

It Wasn't July 4th, Yet Verily FinALLy Independence Day For me on the 19th)

FoR Me And Now Science
Affirms The Effect Works for Others True.

See Ya Later, Got Some Naked, Enough,
Whole, Complete 'Gardening In Eden of Balance

to Dance'...

HeHE ALWayS
The "WeekStart"
FoR Me eTernAlly New Now..:)



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IsabellaLinton
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20 Aug 2022, 10:28 am

Quote:
People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon ... This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.


Students are always shocked to learn the Catholic Church convicted Galileo with heresy for espousing Copernicus' theory of heliocentrism. He was briefly imprisoned and spent the rest of his life on house arrest.



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20 Aug 2022, 10:34 am

As you can see, Protestants weren't much better.
That was the culture of thought of the time.


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20 Aug 2022, 10:56 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Thanks Znof. ^^^

My partner and I just watched your video (yeah, because we're that cerebral ...) It was interesting bc he's from Vancouver and he worked with at-risk inner-city youth, particularly the Indigenous community. It was relevant for me having dated a homeless man (he was in a shelter, not on the street), and because my son was homeless in BC for several months without telling me. He had a great job but couldn't afford housing and lived in an abandoned vehicle. TMI.

Anyway, thank you. It hit us both pretty hard but we both appreciate honest documentaries. I can see Rawlsian influence even though it's difficult to implement in established and impoverished communities. Society won't get anywhere without idealists like ourselves advocating for human dignity, and fostering informed empathy through experimental research like Misha's.


Thanks Isabella, but there is a lot I dont agree with in Mishas video, too much to go into here, but the biggest issue is when he faked getting a disability check to give the impression that many recipients have faked their way to getting DB.


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21 Aug 2022, 2:16 am

Now I think you were being sarcastic Isabella? That doc is all bunk stats and fake news to fuel resentment against the homeless, and I can make a case Misha knows this, hes not as dumb as he looks in this doc.

After seeing this the first time a few years ago I wanted to make a reply doc, and my sister talked me out of it and said "nobody cares"

Im also really disgusted there was not response from UBC, I serously think of going there and self harming in protest

I dont mean an official response, just something from somebody. Guess its up to me

Sorry to hijack into sociology fnord :mrgreen:


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21 Aug 2022, 9:13 pm

Ok turns out the bum philosher is the missing link to get it on topic. Not so much what he wrote but that they gave him a phd for it.

I have long thought North American professors tended to be weaker than European ones, and suspect its the framework, positivism vs Existentialism.

Some will say, existentialism is wishy washy postmodernism. Often yes, but probably far more often in america

forget about misha


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21 Aug 2022, 9:18 pm

All I was saying is that we liked the insight into the homelessness programs which were offered (the needle program, the access to clean clothes, fitness and showers etc). It's an imperfect system but I'm still proud of some of the facilities offered. I wasn't making a comment on Misha, his attack on addiction, or his motives in the film.



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21 Aug 2022, 10:21 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
Imho, in past centuries, the way to criticize the dominant religion has been to establish epistemology and such - but eventually, science did away with mystical religions and our dominant religion today is not mystic, but rational.

Depends where you live. The above is certainly not true in the Bible Belt here in the U.S.A.


Yes, or all of India.
But that would be boring to philosophize about, everything important has been said hundreds of years ago.
For a philosopher today, it would only be interesting to wonder why in most parts of the world, though science clearly is working and proving its correctness through that, religion still is the way to view the world.

Saw on reddit the other day pictures of a chain of bright lights in the night sky, and people being quite excited about that - until they learned that those broght spots were merely new starlink satellites. Somehow, manmade objects hurling through space, in perfect choregraphy and in accordance with the theory of relativity, to transmit 0s and 1s which eventually will get decoded and end up as a youtube video of someone explaining why the earth is flat, is not fascinating enough.....


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23 Aug 2022, 12:46 am

The current state of philosophy is too woke for me. Make philosophy great again.


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23 Aug 2022, 8:20 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
The current state of philosophy is too woke for me. Make philosophy great again.


Wokeness establishef its own hierarchy, and people running universities are profiting of that: you can lower wages, because wokeness is not a skill with which you can easily earn money outside of academia, and woke people are in fierce competition about who is the wokest. Of course, education suffers, but people are willing to pay for it anyway.
Of course, wokeness in STEM-fields would be awful, which is why you don't see it there - people there get hired based on the hierarchies in their field (mostly). It's merely university leadership trying to squeeze workers a little, while doing the arts and humanities a great disservice.

But outside of colleges, philosophy isn't particularly woke. Established philosophers tend to know their Plato and Aristotle, their Kant and Nietzsche and Popper. (For now. Who knows what will become of these fields once wokeism is the hierarchy outside of colleges).

You just have to look.
"Make philosophy great again" however makes me think of people like Douglas Murray and Alexander Dugin. That's not much philosophy, that's more like propaganda.


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