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Raptor
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26 Aug 2022, 11:27 pm

Dox47 wrote:
I actually find the inaction to be incredibly shocking, not because I have a lot of confidence in the police but because I don't know an adult man who wouldn't throw himself between a child and harm, it's damn near instinctive (I have it and I don't particularly like children). The thought of just standing there geared up and letting it happen is beyond horrifying, I think I'd rather get shot than do that.

Who'd have thought that one day that we'd find ourselves contemplating scenarios that would entail suppressing/defeating the cops to get them out of the way so we could get to the kids to rescue them.
What a world we live in...
:(


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26 Aug 2022, 11:56 pm

Raptor wrote:
Who'd have thought that one day that we'd find ourselves contemplating scenarios that would entail suppressing/defeating the cops to get them out of the way so we could get to the kids to rescue them.
What a world we live in...
:(


I don't know if you're on Arfcom or not, but there are a lot of cops on there, and they were about as unanimous as I've ever seen them regarding a police failure, like not a single person defending the cops and a lot of suggestions that they collectively suck start a shotgun. That's one of the bigger myths about the right broadly, there are definitely some bootlicking types, but it's not nearly as widespread or deeply rooted as is commonly believed.


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27 Aug 2022, 12:02 am

Raptor wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I actually find the inaction to be incredibly shocking, not because I have a lot of confidence in the police but because I don't know an adult man who wouldn't throw himself between a child and harm, it's damn near instinctive (I have it and I don't particularly like children). The thought of just standing there geared up and letting it happen is beyond horrifying, I think I'd rather get shot than do that.

Who'd have thought that one day that we'd find ourselves contemplating scenarios that would entail suppressing/defeating the cops to get them out of the way so we could get to the kids to rescue them.
What a world we live in...
:(


At the very least someone threatening them might have spurred them to the correct action.

Although, I'd worry it would cause them to fire at the crazed gunman outside firing at the cops instead of the one they were called to respond to.

Might the training have leaned too far into the you are heroes, the most important thing is you guys going home to your families doctrine during training? At some point they need to reconcile themselves with the fact that they've signed up to be the first responders to those situations, that's the duty they've sworn to take on.

I'm glad that at least it sounds like it's widely condemned by their fellow officers more broadly.

Failing in that regard only gives fuel to people who want to condemn the institution of policing as well as the people who might be open to the state having less of a monopoly on use of force, both of which they tend to oppose.


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27 Aug 2022, 12:38 am

Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
No, by blood for blood I meant a life for a life.
Look at what those yellow as*holes did, or more correctly ** didn't do **.


I don't disagree, I mean catch me on a bad day and I'll half seriously advocate picking off cops running speed traps as a warning to the others, I was just trying to think through a slightly more legal option. In the absence of legal options though, I don't take anything off the table, criminals acting under the color of law deserve the harshest sanction, up to and including unmarked holes in the desert.


There is a unconfirmed story where police where hassling a military transport vehicle. The MPs shot the police and buried them in unmarked graves.



Raptor
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27 Aug 2022, 1:25 am

Dox47 wrote:
I don't know if you're on Arfcom or not.

ARF.com? Yes, but I've never posted very much there. It is where I learned the details of assembling AR's. It used to be called AR15.com and "ARF" was its nickname.
Also, M4Carbine.net is a good site.

Quote:
There are a lot of cops on there, and they were about as unanimous as I've ever seen them regarding a police failure, like not a single person defending the cops and a lot of suggestions that they collectively suck start a shotgun. That's one of the bigger myths about the right broadly, there are definitely some bootlicking types, but it's not nearly as widespread or deeply rooted as is commonly believed.

Yeah, and they don't want to be viewed as wussies there. Talk is cheap.
Cops in Columbine, Virginia Tech, and Parkland to name some examples before Uvalde have proven to be failures right there on camera for the world to see. While there has been training since Columbine to improve/enhance their tactics, training alone can't stuff balls into them. Sure, their all brave when kicking in doors over a suspected reefer dealer, shooting the suspects dog for no reason, and terrorizing their little kids, but when it's for real things tend to get increasingly iffy as to their judgment and bravery.

I've personally counted seven (7) city cop cars showing up, lights and sirens, for two drunks fist fighting in an alley.
Not only did that many show up, but they stuck around for over an hour just bullshitting AFTER the two that were fighting had been dealt with. This is just one example I've personally witnessed.

Yeah, I'll be looking for an overall nationwide improvement with at least some semblance of consistency before I start giving cops as a whole credit for actual bravery.


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27 Aug 2022, 1:30 am

TwisterUprocker wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
No, by blood for blood I meant a life for a life.
Look at what those yellow as*holes did, or more correctly ** didn't do **.


I don't disagree, I mean catch me on a bad day and I'll half seriously advocate picking off cops running speed traps as a warning to the others, I was just trying to think through a slightly more legal option. In the absence of legal options though, I don't take anything off the table, criminals acting under the color of law deserve the harshest sanction, up to and including unmarked holes in the desert.


There is a unconfirmed story where police where hassling a military transport vehicle. The MPs shot the police and buried them in unmarked graves.


Why waste the time and energy burying them. After all, the buzzards have to eat.


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27 Aug 2022, 1:37 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Might the training have leaned too far into the you are heroes, the most important thing is you guys going home to your families doctrine during training?


Yes, exactly that, along with the warrior mindset garbage. It really saddens me that a guy who wrote a book I really like is behind a lot of that stuff, dude by the name of Dave Grossman, his On Killing is an extremely important book even if his last couple of chapters on violent games haven't aged well, but he's also the godfather of this type of police training that I think is highly toxic and teaches the cops to act more like soldiers occupying hostile territory.


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Dox47
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27 Aug 2022, 2:04 am

Raptor wrote:
ARF.com? Yes, but I've never posted very much there. It is where I learned the details of assembling AR's. It used to be called AR15.com and "ARF" was its nickname.
Also, M4Carbine.net is a good site.


Yup, still AR15.com, though mostly people just call it Arfcom. It's not as lively as it once was, Brownells bought the site a couple of years ago and had to clean it up a bit, but it's still pretty big and active, I mostly post on the tech side and browse GD for laughs. It's also really useful for tracking stories not in the mainstream news, all through 2020 there were guys there watching all the live streams of the various riots and protests pulling footage of what was really happening, or later watching the Rittenhouse trial all day and clipping the highlights, if you know how to look it's a great tool. That place also costs me tons of money, I'm up to 11 cans thanks to those guys, gotta flex on the poors lol.


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29 Aug 2022, 7:55 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
ARF.com? Yes, but I've never posted very much there. It is where I learned the details of assembling AR's. It used to be called AR15.com and "ARF" was its nickname.
Also, M4Carbine.net is a good site.


Yup, still AR15.com, though mostly people just call it Arfcom. It's not as lively as it once was, Brownells bought the site a couple of years ago and had to clean it up a bit, but it's still pretty big and active, I mostly post on the tech side and browse GD for laughs. It's also really useful for tracking stories not in the mainstream news, all through 2020 there were guys there watching all the live streams of the various riots and protests pulling footage of what was really happening, or later watching the Rittenhouse trial all day and clipping the highlights, if you know how to look it's a great tool. That place also costs me tons of money, I'm up to 11 cans thanks to those guys, gotta flex on the poors lol.

Not too many years ago there had been legislation proposed to drop the tax stamp/NFA requirements from suppressor purchases and require only a 4473 and NICS. Of course, it went nowhere.


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funeralxempire
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29 Aug 2022, 8:08 pm

Dox47 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Might the training have leaned too far into the you are heroes, the most important thing is you guys going home to your families doctrine during training?


Yes, exactly that, along with the warrior mindset garbage. It really saddens me that a guy who wrote a book I really like is behind a lot of that stuff, dude by the name of Dave Grossman, his On Killing is an extremely important book even if his last couple of chapters on violent games haven't aged well, but he's also the godfather of this type of police training that I think is highly toxic and teaches the cops to act more like soldiers occupying hostile territory.


I didn't want to call him out by name but I've read On Killing and On Combat to the point they started to fall apart.


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29 Aug 2022, 9:06 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I didn't want to call him out by name but I've read On Killing and On Combat to the point they started to fall apart.


Oh, so you know? He's actually one of the people I point to when I argue against throwing someone's entire work out due to bad thinking in a different area, the odiousness of his police training doesn't cancel out the fact that he wrote the best book on the effects of combat on the human psyche ever written.


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29 Aug 2022, 9:10 pm

Raptor wrote:
Not too many years ago there had been legislation proposed to drop the tax stamp/NFA requirements from suppressor purchases and require only a 4473 and NICS. Of course, it went nowhere.


Yeah, the Hearing Protection Act, a casualty of the Las Vegas concert shooting. NFA is so wonky that even liberals I try and explain it to usually concede it's a bad law, if they can figure out the difference between a pistol, a short barreled rifle, an "any other weapon", and a "firearm", that is.

I'd sure like my $2K+ in tax stamps back, to say nothing of the months of waiting, I've got two in jail right now, one from last May and one from January on an E-Form, waiting with bated breath to see which one comes in first.


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30 Aug 2022, 7:09 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Not too many years ago there had been legislation proposed to drop the tax stamp/NFA requirements from suppressor purchases and require only a 4473 and NICS. Of course, it went nowhere.


Yeah, the Hearing Protection Act, a casualty of the Las Vegas concert shooting. NFA is so wonky that even liberals I try and explain it to usually concede it's a bad law, if they can figure out the difference between a pistol, a short barreled rifle, an "any other weapon", and a "firearm", that is.

I'd sure like my $2K+ in tax stamps back, to say nothing of the months of waiting, I've got two in jail right now, one from last May and one from January on an E-Form, waiting with bated breath to see which one comes in first.


That was a silly title but not the first. :roll:
Deregulate Mufflers Act would have been more honest and accurate and totally dereg them. Even suggesting that they would require a 4473 and/or NICS still suggests to the unindoctrinated that suppressors are naughty.

That aside, I'd like to have one for my USP .45ACP. A suppressed M4 in .300 Blackout that is also equipped with a good NV optic would totally be the s**t. :twisted:


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06 Oct 2022, 8:52 pm

Uvalde school officer Crimson Elizondo who responded to shooting, fired after CNN report

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Uvalde school officials fired a newly hired district cop Thursday after a report revealed she was one of the officers who botched rescue attempts at the Robb Elementary School massacre – but Texas Gov. Greg Abbott claims the agency knew exactly who she was when they hired her.

Crimson Elizondo was canned one day after CNN identified her as one of the first Texas Department of Public Safety officers who arrived at the scene and failed to take proper action as Salvador Ramos slaughtered 19 kids and two teachers inside.

Elizondo showed up with her handgun drawn, but did not grab any tactical body armor or her long rifle from her police car, as officers are trained to do, CNN reported.

She was later captured on body camera footage telling a fellow officer that if her own son had been inside the building, she wouldn’t have been standing around outside.

“We are deeply distressed by the information that was disclosed yesterday evening concerning one of our recently hired employees, Crimson Elizondo,” the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District said in a statement.

“We sincerely apologize to the victim’s families and the greater Uvalde community for the pain that this revelation has caused. Ms. Elizondo’s statement in the audio is not consistent with the District’s expectations.”

But Gov. Greg Abbott claims the school district had reached out to Texas DPS before hiring Elizondo and was told the officer “had actions inconsistent with training and department requirements,” the Texas Tribune reported.

“So that school district had full information about the person they chose to go ahead and hire, and that’s up to the school district — not DPS, not anybody else — to have to own up to the poor decision they made,” Abbott told reporters Thursday.

Surveillance footage captured Elizondo inside the elementary school briefly, still without any protective gear on, but mostly she mostly stood outside, CNN said.

At one point, Elizondo can be heard on body camera footage responding to a fellow officer who asked whether she had children inside the school as officers received reports of shots fired in the building.

“If my son had been in there, I would not have been outside,” she said. “I promise you that.”

She later left the scene after offering to gather supplies and by the time she returned, police had apprehended the gunman.


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07 Oct 2022, 6:09 pm

Uvalde school district suspends entire police force, superintendent to retire amid fallout from shooting

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The Uvalde, Texas, school district -- still facing withering criticism over its police department's failings both during the May 24 elementary school massacre and since -- announced the suspension of the entire district police force on Friday.

Hours later, Uvalde school district Superintendent Hal Harrell announced he would be retiring. There was no timeframe given for Harrell's retirement, but the transition will be discussed in a closed session of the school board on Monday.

The district said it's requested more Texas Department of Public Safety troopers to be stationed on campuses and at extracurricular activities amid the police department suspension, adding, "We are confident that staff and student safety will not be compromised during this transition."

The length of the school district police suspension is not clear.

Lt. Miguel Hernandez, who was tasked with leading the department in the fallout from the shooting that killed 19 students and two teachers, and Ken Mueller, the UCISD's director of student services, were placed on administrative leave.

Hernandez acknowledged in a law enforcement communication in August that he'd received formal notification from DPS that an officer applying to Uvalde's school police force was under investigation for her response at Robb Elementary.

Mueller has elected to retire, according to the school district.

"Officers currently employed will fill other roles in the district," the school district said. According to the district's website, that includes four officers and one security guard.

Victims' families, led by Brett Cross, guardian of 10-year-old victim Uziyah Garcia, had been holding a round-the-clock vigil outside the school district headquarters calling for change. The families are now commending Friday's police department announcement.

"We've gotten a little bit of accountability," an emotional Cross told ABC News. "So, it's a win, and we don't get very many of those."


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07 Oct 2022, 6:35 pm

It's good to see certain members here on WP have "woken up" to the fact there is a toxic police culture in the United States.

It should be easy to now interpret that Ulvade is not a basket case, it is merely the exposed tip of the iceberg.

The underlying problem now needs to be addressed. The US police has killed more people compared to any other industrialized democracy (fact), with a disproportionate number of people shot being people of color (fact).