Lawmakers warn of potential political violence in campaign

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ASPartOfMe
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04 Sep 2022, 9:29 pm

The election of Nixon was not good for the Vietnam Era leftists, but the election of Trump and his continuing relevance is the best thing to ever happen to wokeism. If the protests sans riots would have caused as much change is hypothetical. Too early to tell the long-term effects as the overreaction is ongoing with all of these censorship laws being passed by "free speech" advocates. Either way as we agree BLM leadership is not apparently unhappy so they must think it was an advantage.

I agree technology is a big factor and BLM is using it much better than the right. It has made it easier for them to avoid direct association with riots. In contrast, the people who stormed the capital were really exhibitionists about it and are or will be doing time.


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Mona Pereth
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04 Sep 2022, 11:42 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Most of 2020 "BLM" protesters were peaceful. Most of November 2020 to January 2021 pro Trump protesters were peaceful carrying "Stop the Steal" and wearing funny clothes, even at the capital. We rightly do not call these protests "mostly peaceful", we call it an insurrection.

One important difference: In the case of BLM, the rioters/looters typically were not just a minority of the protesters, but completely separate from the main protests. The marches typically took place during the daytime, or sometimes in the early evening. The riots/looting typically happened later at night, in a different location from the march, and involved a different set of people.

Even in the case of the of the January 6 "Stop the Steal" protest, though, I think we should be careful about who we call an insurrectionist.

The people who broke windows of the Capitol building were insurrectionists. So were the people who brought Zip ties, with intent to kidnap people. So were the people who used flagpoles as battering rams to break down doors. So were the people who barged into the offices of individual members of Congress.

However, there appear to have been quite a few law-abiding "Stop the Steal" protesters who ignorantly followed some of the insurrectionists into the Capitol building, mistakenly believing that they had been legally allowed into the building. These people, who mostly just hung around taking selfies, should not be considered insurrectionists.

Also there were quite a few people who participated in the "Stop the Steal" rally but didn't enter the Capitol. They should not be called insurrectionists either.

So the attempted insurrection was only a part of the January 6 "Stop the Steal" protest. The protest as a whole should not be called an insurrection.

Here's a recent interview with Ali Alexander, organizer of the January 6 "Stop the Steal" protest.

(I certainly do not agree with the beliefs of any of the "Stop the Steal" protesters!)

See also my post at the bottom of the previous page.


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Dox47
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05 Sep 2022, 12:05 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
So were the people who brought Zip ties, with intent to kidnap people.


Nobody brought zip ties, that was debunked literally years ago, they picked them up from where a cop dropped them, IIRC they actually carry serial numbers as they were police issue flex-cuffs, proving that they weren't brought in by a protestor.


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ASPartOfMe
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05 Sep 2022, 7:12 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Most of 2020 "BLM" protesters were peaceful. Most of November 2020 to January 2021 pro Trump protesters were peaceful carrying "Stop the Steal" and wearing funny clothes, even at the capital. We rightly do not call these protests "mostly peaceful", we call it an insurrection.

One important difference: In the case of BLM, the rioters/looters typically were not just a minority of the protesters, but completely separate from the main protests. The marches typically took place during the daytime, or sometimes in the early evening. The riots/looting typically happened later at night, in a different location from the march, and involved a different set of people.

Even in the case of the of the January 6 "Stop the Steal" protest, though, I think we should be careful about who we call an insurrectionist.

The people who broke windows of the Capitol building were insurrectionists. So were the people who brought Zip ties, with intent to kidnap people. So were the people who used flagpoles as battering rams to break down doors. So were the people who barged into the offices of individual members of Congress.

However, there appear to have been quite a few law-abiding "Stop the Steal" protesters who ignorantly followed some of the insurrectionists into the Capitol building, mistakenly believing that they had been legally allowed into the building. These people, who mostly just hung around taking selfies, should not be considered insurrectionists.

Also there were quite a few people who participated in the "Stop the Steal" rally but didn't enter the Capitol. They should not be called insurrectionists either.

So the attempted insurrection was only a part of the January 6 "Stop the Steal" protest. The protest as a whole should not be called an insurrection.

Here's a recent interview with Ali Alexander, organizer of the January 6 "Stop the Steal" protest.

(I certainly do not agree with the beliefs of any of the "Stop the Steal" protesters!)

See also my post at the bottom of the previous page.

Yes 1/6 it was a “mostly peaceful” protest. If you want to assume the rioters did not intend to storm the capital at the start of the day fine but that is what they did. Considering what it turned into and the target the event as a whole was an insurrection.

A bit off topic here but if 1/6 was mostly spontaneous the fact that there were a lot less law enforcement then one would expect emboldened people to go for it. In a post 9/11 world if I a 60 something individual with a cane started walking towards the capital uninvited and ignored orders I would expect to be gunned down before I got to the door. How do they know I don’t have an explosive device? The potential for this to go bad was well advertised. The night before I posted an article here where they warned of trouble. I remember we had a chat group meeting on 1/5 while I stuck to discussing autism I had a deep sense of foreboding. Yet a fairly lightly armed group got in big time. The Jan 6 commission so far has mostly avoided this. The cops are described either as heroes, or lenient because the rioters were mostly white, or in league the rioters. I do not blame the individual cops, they were not the Uvalde cops, they were woefully unprepared., Why? I do suspect people at high levels of D.C. police force had advance knowledge and intentionally left their cops unprepared.

Back more on topic that and the BLM related events peaceful by day, riots at night you mentioned is a reason I do suspect a good cop, bad cop thing was going on.

I am just sick and tired of these events being excused and minimized. Using term that is technically correct but less bad sounding as other relevant terms is how these events are minimized. A riot brings images of drunken college students or people acting out of rage and people taking advantage to get free stuff. 1/6 was way more then that and we should use a term that recognizes that. The BLM related events of 2020 was much more then a mostly peaceful protest and we need to use terminology that recognizes that. It sucks for the majority of participants that acted lawfully but minimizing these events clearly is not working.


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05 Sep 2022, 8:54 am

Dox47 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
So were the people who brought Zip ties, with intent to kidnap people.


Nobody brought zip ties, that was debunked literally years ago, they picked them up from where a cop dropped them, IIRC they actually carry serial numbers as they were police issue flex-cuffs, proving that they weren't brought in by a protestor.

I doubt they picked them up to return to the officer.A very small chance they just wanted free zip ties ,they are handy to have on hand.


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05 Sep 2022, 8:56 am

Certain people do get violent when they don't get their own way.


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Dox47
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05 Sep 2022, 12:41 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I doubt they picked them up to return to the officer.A very small chance they just wanted free zip ties ,they are handy to have on hand.


Why they picked them up doesn't matter, what is important is that the "they brought zip ties to take hostages" story that was widely publicized in the media was proven false, and yet it's still commonly believed.


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Mona Pereth
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05 Sep 2022, 1:12 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Nobody brought zip ties, that was debunked literally years ago, they picked them up from where a cop dropped them, IIRC they actually carry serial numbers as they were police issue flex-cuffs, proving that they weren't brought in by a protestor.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Googling, I found this news story:

Quote:
Eric Munchel, a pro-Trump rioter who stormed the Capitol building while holding plastic handcuffs, took the restraints from a table inside the Capitol building, prosecutors said in a court filing Wednesday.

Munchel, who broke into the building with his mom, was labeled "zip-tie guy" after he was photographed barreling down the Senate chamber holding the restraints. His appearance raised questions about whether the insurrectionists who sought to stop Congress from counting Electoral College votes on January 6 also intended to take lawmakers hostage.

But according to the new filing, Munchel and his mother took the handcuffs from within the Capitol building — apparently to ensure the Capitol Police couldn't use them on the insurrectionists — rather than bring them in when they initially breached the building.


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Dox47
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05 Sep 2022, 1:24 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.


Thank you for listening, people are so entrenched on this story that they often won't budge even when there is concrete evidence against their beliefs. Personally, speaking as someone with some actual exposure to the kinds of people who rioted on J6, I think the fact that they didn't bring any guns is absolutely fatal to the "insurrection" narrative, that if breaching the capitol and seizing the government was the plan, they'd have shown up armed. I do also find the skimpy police presence curious, and would like to know the role of any federal informants on the ground, as all of those groups are thoroughly penetrated, and at the least there is no way that federal law enforcement didn't know that something was going to happen.


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Mona Pereth
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05 Sep 2022, 1:41 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Why they picked them up doesn't matter, what is important is that the "they brought zip ties to take hostages" story that was widely publicized in the media was proven false, and yet it's still commonly believed.

Unfortunately, it often happens that corrections don't get publicized as much as the original story.

Still, I'm sure the "Zip tie guy" broke a law or two by picking them up when and where he did, so why he picked them up does indeed matter.


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Mona Pereth
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05 Sep 2022, 2:28 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Here's a recent interview with Ali Alexander, organizer of the January 6 "Stop the Steal" protest.

(I certainly do not agree with the beliefs of any of the "Stop the Steal" protesters!)

Yes 1/6 it was a “mostly peaceful” protest. If you want to assume the rioters did not intend to storm the capital at the start of the day fine but that is what they did.

My impression is that some of the January 6 protesters, e.g. the Proud Boys, did intend all along to storm the Capitol and to convince other protesters to join them in so doing. But this was not the intent of the main protest organizers, nor of the vast majority of the protesters.

Some news stories regarding the role of the Proud Boys:

- Court document in Proud Boys case laid out plan to occupy Capitol buildings on Jan. 6 by Ryan J. Reilly, NBC News, June 15, 2022
- Investigation details Proud Boys’ role in Jan 6 US Capitol riot, Al Jazeera, 17 Jun 2022

As for why a bunch of otherwise law-abiding protesters ended up following the insurrectionists into the Capitol, Ali Alexander blames a lack of sufficiently clear instruction to the protesters as to where they were supposed to go.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Considering what it turned into and the target the event as a whole was an insurrection.

I would say that the protest was deliberately hijacked to turn it into an insurrection.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
A bit off topic here but if 1/6 was mostly spontaneous

I wouldn't say it was "spontaneous," but different groups had different agendas, and Ali Alexander admits that he was not sufficiently prepared to avoid having the protest be taken over by "bad actors."

ASPartOfMe wrote:
the fact that there were a lot less law enforcement then one would expect emboldened people to go for it. In a post 9/11 world if I a 60 something individual with a cane started walking towards the capital uninvited and ignored orders I would expect to be gunned down before I got to the door. How do they know I don’t have an explosive device? The potential for this to go bad was well advertised. The night before I posted an article here where they warned of trouble. I remember we had a chat group meeting on 1/5 while I stuck to discussing autism I had a deep sense of foreboding. Yet a fairly lightly armed group got in big time. The Jan 6 commission so far has mostly avoided this. The cops are described either as heroes, or lenient because the rioters were mostly white, or in league the rioters. I do not blame the individual cops, they were not the Uvalde cops, they were woefully unprepared., Why? I do suspect people at high levels of D.C. police force had advance knowledge and intentionally left their cops unprepared.

I strongly suspect the same. I wonder why the Jan 6 commission hasn't paid more attention to this question.

I too had a strong sense of forboding on January 5.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Back more on topic that and the BLM related events peaceful by day, riots at night you mentioned is a reason I do suspect a good cop, bad cop thing was going on.

I am just sick and tired of these events being excused and minimized. Using term that is technically correct but less bad sounding as other relevant terms is how these events are minimized. A riot brings images of drunken college students or people acting out of rage and people taking advantage to get free stuff. 1/6 was way more then that and we should use a term that recognizes that.

I agree that the storming of the Capitol was much worse than just a "riot." At the same time, we should be careful about who we blame for it.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The BLM related events of 2020 was much more then a mostly peaceful protest and we need to use terminology that recognizes that. It sucks for the majority of participants that acted lawfully but minimizing these events clearly is not working.

There needs to be more of a crackdown on rioters/looters/arsonists.

But, unless there's actual evidence of conspiracy between the BLM protest organizers and the rioters, it's not fair to blame the protesters for a riot that occurs after the protest and involves a completely different set of people in a separate location.


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Misslizard
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05 Sep 2022, 5:24 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
I doubt they picked them up to return to the officer.A very small chance they just wanted free zip ties ,they are handy to have on hand.


Why they picked them up doesn't matter, what is important is that the "they brought zip ties to take hostages" story that was widely publicized in the media was proven false, and yet it's still commonly believed.

Well in a way it does,implies intent.Why would you pick them up?To use them.
That is what I would do.
I would use them to mend a broken fence.
I have no idea what he planned, doubtful it was to keep the geese out of the yard.


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Last edited by Misslizard on 05 Sep 2022, 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Sep 2022, 5:47 pm

It was at this point in history that American politicians regretted consistently under funding mental healthcare for their constituents.


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