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Dox47
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23 Sep 2022, 5:41 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Everyone here has probably had that conversation to death.


Have they? When I've previously mentioned it, there's a lot of collective head scratching at the term, along with expressions of surprise when it's explained.

The_Walrus wrote:
In the real world, the vast majority of lesbians do not experience that sort of tension, and the vast majority of trans lesbians don’t expect every lesbian to be personally attracted to them. In fact, shock horror, queer people tend to be less queerphobic.


And yet, lesbian spaces are disappearing both online and off, and those that remain are often fractured by the issue of how to treat transbians, particularly non-op ones. What is your opinion here, should lesbians who don't want anything to do with natal males or male bodyparts be forced to include transbians in their spaces under the banner of "inclusiveness"?

The_Walrus wrote:
I was recently at a meeting of my workplace’s LGBT group. One man stood up and said he was concerned about how “the trans issue” is “impacting women, particularly lesbians”. Not a single other person at the meeting (and it was mostly women at a pretty large meeting) expressed any support, and most of the rest of the meeting was a string of cis women of all ages actively saying they disagreed with him. It just isn’t an issue for most people.


Am I supposed to draw any grand conclusions from your anecdote?


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23 Sep 2022, 5:49 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Do you have any relevant direct quotes (preferably more than just a phrase or two) from Stonewall?


Nah. I'm sure the original sources can be tracked down, but I don't have them to hand. I don't really care about this topic beyond laughing my sides into orbit from the sidelines.


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Dox47
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23 Sep 2022, 5:56 pm

Mikah wrote:
Nah. I'm sure the original sources can be tracked down, but I don't have them to hand. I don't really care about this topic beyond laughing my sides into orbit from the sidelines.


She doesn't really care, she's just trying to make you waste time, it's her go to move.


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Mona Pereth
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23 Sep 2022, 8:06 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Mikah wrote:
I don't really care about this topic beyond laughing my sides into orbit from the sidelines.

... which I strongly suspect is the attitude of the folks at the Daily Mail too, which why I would expect them not to make a whole lot of effort to report this story accurately.

Dox47 wrote:
She doesn't really care, she's just trying to make you waste time, it's her go to move.

What???

I've seen you ask people to cite sources -- or to cite better sources -- too. Earlier in this very thread, for example, you repeatedly challenged people to find actual transphobic statements by JK Rowling herself.

Do you nevertheless consider it to be just making the rest of us waste time, rather than upholding a principle that people who make claims should be willing to back them up???


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DW_a_mom
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23 Sep 2022, 11:55 pm

Mikah wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Everyone has a right to be attracted to who they are attracted to.
Everyone has a right to not return the attraction.
Everyone has a right to say "no" and have that accepted at face value.


They strongly disagree with these three. A direct comparison has been made with the idea of "sexual racism" - that is if you are not attracted to someone because of their racial features - you are a racist. And no one has the right to be racist. It follows then that no one has the right to be unattracted to specific genitals or body types or knowledge of a person's "gender history". Saying no to the bearded, dress wearing "lady" is transphobia or cissexism. Checkmate lesbians.


That is fringe thinking, not pervasive in the LGBTQ community (as far as I can tell), and simply wrong. IMHO. Bodies don't generally allow us to order them to respond on demand. People have always had preferences. Having preferences for intimacy doesn't make you the equivalent of racist. There is no inherent right to intimacy with the person of your choosing; it has to be a two-way street. People have all sorts of arbitrary standards that often make them come across poorly, but its still their right.

You can find a group of people willing to debate anything and everything, and blame their personal issues on some fault in others, but that doesn't mean we have to validate it.

I have sympathy for the narrow dating pool some groups of people find themselves able to access, and can understand the need to find someone or something to blame in the hopes that societal change can widen one's pool, but there are literally millions of different reasons ones dating pool can be ridiculously narrow. Start down that rabbit hole and it will never, ever end.


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Dox47
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24 Sep 2022, 12:48 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
That is fringe thinking, not pervasive in the LGBTQ community (as far as I can tell), and simply wrong. IMHO. Bodies don't generally allow us to order them to respond on demand. People have always had preferences. Having preferences for intimacy doesn't make you the equivalent of racist. There is no inherent right to intimacy with the person of your choosing; it has to be a two-way street. People have all sorts of arbitrary standards that often make them come across poorly, but its still their right.


I hate to say this, but I think you might just be out of touch on this one, the attitudes being described are incredibly common among younger people, and you can frequently see them on display right her in our L&D forum, not that I blame you for avoiding it.


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Dox47
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24 Sep 2022, 12:55 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

I've seen you ask people to cite sources -- or to cite better sources -- too. Earlier in this very thread, for example, you repeatedly challenged people to find actual transphobic statements by JK Rowling herself.

Do you nevertheless consider it to be just making the rest of us waste time, rather than upholding a principle that people who make claims should be willing to back them up???


You are incredibly selective about where you demand rigorous evidence, and then demure when the same request is made of you, hence my conclusion.

You may have noticed that this entire thread is premised on compelling the people who think JK Rowling is a transphobe to prove their case, making my prodding entirely appropriate in context, particularly as no one as yet come up with a smoking gun, rather a bunch of uncharitable close readings and guilt by association claims.


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Dox47
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24 Sep 2022, 1:02 am

The_Walrus wrote:
The first three are generally regarded as good, if otherwise unremarkable. I knew someone who read The Cuckoo's Calling before the author was revealed, and she liked it well enough.

Book 4 is when the trans stuff starts creeping in (and that came out before the big fuss last summer). Don't know anyone who has read them other than specifically to pick that stuff out.


Okay, I've now read the first five books, there is exactly one trans character, in book 2, and they're entirely incidental, a red herring thrown in to lead the reader down a false trail, with their gender identity being entirely irrelevant to the story and simply mentioned in passing. There is nothing about identity stuff in books 4 or 5, though some people have tried to make that claim of book 5, which features a background character of a serial killer from the 70s who was known to dress in drag as a disguise as part of his MO, but that's all it is, the dude's disguise, trying to shoehorn in a claim that the character is somehow anti trans is disingenuous at best.

Serious suggestion; maybe do a little investigation of some of the claims surrounding trans politics, you might be surprised at what you find.


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Mikah
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24 Sep 2022, 7:50 am

Online dating as a lesbian these days:

https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/ ... 9877014528

A lesbian user of the lesbian dating app Her says in her experience more biological males than females are now using it

It could all be internet hysteria, but I suspect not. What many older folks adamantly refuse to accept is that the online dating scene is the dating scene today - the majority of people meet through dating apps. If lesbians are saying they are under undue pressure to sleep with trans women - they probably are, likewise if trans women say that lesbians are discriminating against them en masse - they probably are too.

Some music might make scrolling through these more enjoyable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg


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Nades
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24 Sep 2022, 8:24 am

Mikah wrote:
Online dating as a lesbian these days:

https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/ ... 9877014528

A lesbian user of the lesbian dating app Her says in her experience more biological males than females are now using it

It could all be internet hysteria, but I suspect not. What many older folks adamantly refuse to accept is that the online dating scene is the dating scene today - the majority of people meet through dating apps. If lesbians are saying they are under undue pressure to sleep with trans women - they probably are, likewise if trans women say that lesbians are discriminating against them en masse - they probably are too.

Some music might make scrolling through these more enjoyable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg



Your spoiler horrifies me. I'm astonished people upload pics looking that bad to a dating site yet alone clearly being men trying to pull lesbians.

I think they're not going to see through their deceit........just a feeling......nothing to do with the balding heads and neck beards or course.



DW_a_mom
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24 Sep 2022, 3:17 pm

Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
That is fringe thinking, not pervasive in the LGBTQ community (as far as I can tell), and simply wrong. IMHO. Bodies don't generally allow us to order them to respond on demand. People have always had preferences. Having preferences for intimacy doesn't make you the equivalent of racist. There is no inherent right to intimacy with the person of your choosing; it has to be a two-way street. People have all sorts of arbitrary standards that often make them come across poorly, but its still their right.


I hate to say this, but I think you might just be out of touch on this one, the attitudes being described are incredibly common among younger people, and you can frequently see them on display right her in our L&D forum, not that I blame you for avoiding it.


Not impossible but reality is that the debate can really only end up in one place. You can't force people to like what they don't like on an intimate level. To some degree people can change their tastes via exposure, but that has to happen naturally, and usually will happen when different groups accept each other socially and interact on a regular and normal basis.


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Dox47
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24 Sep 2022, 3:28 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Not impossible but reality is that the debate can really only end up in one place. You can't force people to like what they don't like on an intimate level. To some degree people can change their tastes via exposure, but that has to happen naturally, and usually will happen when different groups accept each other socially and interact on a regular and normal basis.


Tell that to the cadre that's shaming people for their sexual aesthetic tastes and hurling the accusations of bigotry around.


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Dox47
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24 Sep 2022, 10:18 pm

I'm now 1/4 of the way through The Ink Black Heart, and it definitely feels a bit more topical due to who the author is, though I suspect that she'd deliberately misleading the reading audience this early in the mystery and all. Still, this is a book where writing under a genuinely unknown pseudonym would have been useful, as the plot involves an author being targeted by toxic fans of her work, the similarities to JK Rowling's actual experience being impossible to ignore. I'm hoping it's all a big feint in the end though, more because I'm not a fan of authors so blatantly grinding their personal axes in their work than anything else, it always comes off as petty and crude.

Still, even if she takes it in the most obvious direction, it would be hard to top Stephen King writing himself into his Gunslinger series in order for his own characters to travel through time and space to save him from both cocaine addiction and a speeding van (somewhat less successfully with the latter), and to take some rather gratuitous shots at the (then deceased) guy who hit him with said van. Not Stevie's finest work.


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DW_a_mom
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25 Sep 2022, 1:57 am

Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Not impossible but reality is that the debate can really only end up in one place. You can't force people to like what they don't like on an intimate level. To some degree people can change their tastes via exposure, but that has to happen naturally, and usually will happen when different groups accept each other socially and interact on a regular and normal basis.


Tell that to the cadre that's shaming people for their sexual aesthetic tastes and hurling the accusations of bigotry around.


Sometimes groups of people just have to go through the extremes to get back to the middle.

As I said earlier, I do have empathy for the fact some gender expressions are going to have a limited dating pool. I feel like the best we can do is to encourage different groups to socialize together, as sometimes familiarity can increase attractiveness. Societal tastes do change and evolve over time, but not because someone demanded it.


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ilovepalmtrees
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25 Sep 2022, 10:27 am

She said trans women weren't women.



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25 Sep 2022, 10:40 am

ilovepalmtrees wrote:
She said trans women weren't women.


This.

After nine pages we can end it here because someone finally answered the question. Lol!



Last edited by naturalplastic on 25 Sep 2022, 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.