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Jakki
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16 Sep 2022, 11:46 am

It seems a.it of people in government offices that deal with corporation took advantage of the dis - ease caused
By those terrorist attacks and Covid situation. Ie. getting people used to the idea of having their civil rights removed
By government decisions, for one I remember was the patriot Act . People losing more rights to personal privacy .
But this had already been done years before. But on the quiet . Eshelon (Eschelon)? System . At the time it was the greatest government eavesdropping system known to man :evil: . Now the use of these system were more legitimized.
Was truly a dark day ,when I watched on live TV of the crashing of the second plane . It was like a nightmare in real life . :cry: :(
The grief did not end there , live TV was showing Horrific images of people leaping out of the building from very high floors.
It was more than my mind could conceive. It almost seemed like shock value was the intended purpose .
Knowing from witnessing some real time suicides on broadcast TV during a Police chase . That had seen on the news later on , [that all broadcasts were to be delayed by 5 minutes in order to filter out those images .] This was over 10 yrs ago .
It struck me as odd, as to why , as I watched those events unfold ,”WHY” they chose to broadcast those additional images of people leaping to their deaths . So could not help but wonder , what kind of mass hysteria was intended
By showing those additional unfiltered images. When things do not fit spoken patterns in my awareness I cannot help but try to reason these things out


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Jakki
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16 Sep 2022, 12:21 pm

Have to wonder sometimes , if posts that might be critical to the powers that be are automatically set to be buried by this site . Hoping that posts concerning these type of issues created by events 21 yrs ago would not get buried .
Am thinking these events and results should be kept in the publics eye :shrug: . As much as the event itself . Honestly it feels like 9/11 just happened a few years ago , speaking of traumatized populations . 8O


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17 Sep 2022, 9:12 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
MaxE wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The cliché rang true for the fall of 2001 in the New York area. It certainly was the worst of times, but it was also the best of times in the sense the there was unity I had never seen before and seems today like it came from an alternate universe to the America of 2022. There was an intensity to every moment.

I remember that feeling too.

The unity ended when the military/intelligence "community" seized upon this event as a pretext for uncontrolled spending on all their pet projects
(along with income tax cuts to please the wealthy) plus neocon military adventures as a way to profit from the horror of the 9/11 attacks. In a couple of short years, it became "their" mission not "ours".

These were factors that at most sped up an inevitable process. The predecessors to todays disunity were quite evident in the 1990s, they were there during the Vietnam era. In some respects we never got over the Civil War. The post 9/11 unity is not natural. It takes a traumatic event for it to occur. If the traumatic event is long term unless we develop PTSD we adjust and get used to it. The expressions “new normal” and “learning to live with it” describes this process.

Most countries are ideologically split. When the split in the USA became toxic was in the 90s following Clinton's inauguration. In addition to the Contract with America (which was more or less politics as usual) you had the rise of radio personalities such as Rush Limbaugh stirring up grass-roots animosity towards the Clintons, and by extension all Democrats without much reference to nuts-and-bolts policy issues, plus you had the Ken Starr investigations, with the aim of painting a picture in the public mind's eye of the Clintons and their allies as criminals. Ironically none of the original charges ever stuck so they eventually resorted to going after him on the Monica Lewinsky thing, after years. It probably didn't help that Clinton was never THAT popular to begin with. There hasn't been a rock star Democratic President since JFK (who was in fact probably a bigger crook than Clinton ever was) nobody with the same sort of fanatic following as Reagan and Trump.

So all 9/11 really did was distract the country for a couple of years from its "normal" political agenda, although with Clinton out of office in 2001 and no major crises, people weren't really paying a lot of attention to politics or W's performance as President, so I suppose you could say the country was "ready" for a shock like that. However the "unity" was mostly expressed just as public displays of hyper-patriotism which if you think about it is by no means a legitimate basis for unity, heck China does way better with its Mao cult for example. There wasn't really a role for everyday citizens. The "solution" to the crisis presented by 9/11 was a massive military buildup and aggressive régime change actions, as a result of which a few people became filthy rich and the recently solvent government went massively into debt (and is still there).

Not sure what point I'm trying to make but that's how I see what happened.


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ASPartOfMe
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17 Sep 2022, 10:24 am

MaxE wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
MaxE wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The cliché rang true for the fall of 2001 in the New York area. It certainly was the worst of times, but it was also the best of times in the sense the there was unity I had never seen before and seems today like it came from an alternate universe to the America of 2022. There was an intensity to every moment.

I remember that feeling too.

The unity ended when the military/intelligence "community" seized upon this event as a pretext for uncontrolled spending on all their pet projects
(along with income tax cuts to please the wealthy) plus neocon military adventures as a way to profit from the horror of the 9/11 attacks. In a couple of short years, it became "their" mission not "ours".

These were factors that at most sped up an inevitable process. The predecessors to todays disunity were quite evident in the 1990s, they were there during the Vietnam era. In some respects we never got over the Civil War. The post 9/11 unity is not natural. It takes a traumatic event for it to occur. If the traumatic event is long term unless we develop PTSD we adjust and get used to it. The expressions “new normal” and “learning to live with it” describes this process.

Most countries are ideologically split. When the split in the USA became toxic was in the 90s following Clinton's inauguration. In addition to the Contract with America (which was more or less politics as usual) you had the rise of radio personalities such as Rush Limbaugh stirring up grass-roots animosity towards the Clintons, and by extension all Democrats without much reference to nuts-and-bolts policy issues, plus you had the Ken Starr investigations, with the aim of painting a picture in the public mind's eye of the Clintons and their allies as criminals. Ironically none of the original charges ever stuck so they eventually resorted to going after him on the Monica Lewinsky thing, after years. It probably didn't help that Clinton was never THAT popular to begin with. There hasn't been a rock star Democratic President since JFK (who was in fact probably a bigger crook than Clinton ever was) nobody with the same sort of fanatic following as Reagan and Trump.

So all 9/11 really did was distract the country for a couple of years from its "normal" political agenda, although with Clinton out of office in 2001 and no major crises, people weren't really paying a lot of attention to politics or W's performance as President, so I suppose you could say the country was "ready" for a shock like that. However the "unity" was mostly expressed just as public displays of hyper-patriotism which if you think about it is by no means a legitimate basis for unity, heck China does way better with its Mao cult for example. There wasn't really a role for everyday citizens. The "solution" to the crisis presented by 9/11 was a massive military buildup and aggressive régime change actions, as a result of which a few people became filthy rich and the recently solvent government went massively into debt (and is still there).

Not sure what point I'm trying to make but that's how I see what happened.

You are trying to say something similar to what I said.


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17 Sep 2022, 12:56 pm

MaxE wrote:
However the "unity" was mostly expressed just as public displays of hyper-patriotism

Here in NYC it was mostly public displays of mourning, plus (many) people being generally nicer to each other than usual.

I can see how it might have been different in other parts of the country that weren't affected as directly.

Unfortunately, 9/11 also gave rise to a lot of anti-Muslim bigotry -- and anti-Sikh bigotry too (because everyone wearing a turban was assumed to be a follower of Osama Bin Laden) -- so the "unity" was far from total.

And then, several years later, the 9/11 "inside job" conspiracy claims began spreading like wildfire, and, along with them, a revival of grand conspiracy ideology in general, much of it reminiscent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, targeting not just Jews but also Pagans, occultists, and Satanists. So it seemed to me like we were entering a general crisis of religion-based bigotry.


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17 Sep 2022, 1:32 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
MaxE wrote:
However the "unity" was mostly expressed just as public displays of hyper-patriotism

Here in NYC it was mostly public displays of mourning, plus (many) people being generally nicer to each other than usual.

I can see how it might have been different in other parts of the country that weren't affected as directly.

Unfortunately, 9/11 also gave rise to a lot of anti-Muslim bigotry -- and anti-Sikh bigotry too (because everyone wearing a turban was assumed to be a follower of Osama Bin Laden) -- so the "unity" was far from total.

And then, several years later, the 9/11 "inside job" conspiracy claims began spreading like wildfire, and, along with them, a revival of grand conspiracy ideology in general, much of it reminiscent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, targeting not just Jews but also Pagans, occultists, and Satanists. So it seemed to me like we were entering a general crisis of religion-based bigotry.

I really don't recall anybody being nicer as a consequence, even though I live roughly an hour (slightly more according to Google) from the Pentagon which was the target of the "other" attack. I just recall seeing American flags displayed everywhere and people wearing American Flag pins at work or social events. Also flag decals on cars were very much a thing. A popular thing was to create a flag in a link fence using red, white, and blue Solo cups. In other words, hyper-patriotism.

Image

Then the hyper-patriotism led to levels of militarism not seen since the Cold War. Unfortunately, this inspired a lot of people to feel that America had gotten "back to normal".


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17 Sep 2022, 2:46 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
MaxE wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The cliché rang true for the fall of 2001 in the New York area. It certainly was the worst of times, but it was also the best of times in the sense the there was unity I had never seen before and seems today like it came from an alternate universe to the America of 2022. There was an intensity to every moment.

I remember that feeling too.

The unity ended when the military/intelligence "community" seized upon this event as a pretext for uncontrolled spending on all their pet projects
(along with income tax cuts to please the wealthy) plus neocon military adventures as a way to profit from the horror of the 9/11 attacks. In a couple of short years, it became "their" mission not "ours".

These were factors that at most sped up an inevitable process. The predecessors to todays disunity were quite evident in the 1990s, they were there during the Vietnam era. In some respects we never got over the Civil War. The post 9/11 unity is not natural. It takes a traumatic event for it to occur. If the traumatic event is long term unless we develop PTSD we adjust and get used to it. The expressions “new normal” and “learning to live with it” describes this process.


When a nation goes to war one of two things are gonna happen. You will unite your people, or you will divide your people.

WWII united us. Vietnam divided us.

Nine- Eleven was like Pearl Harbor on steroids, a shock that instantly united America. But after only couple of years Afghanistan turned into a quagmire, AND GWB used 9-11 as an excuse to start a second quagmire in Iraq. So we went from Pearl Harbor to Vietnam in the same war in only a couple of years.



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17 Sep 2022, 3:54 pm

MaxE wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
MaxE wrote:
However the "unity" was mostly expressed just as public displays of hyper-patriotism

Here in NYC it was mostly public displays of mourning, plus (many) people being generally nicer to each other than usual.

I can see how it might have been different in other parts of the country that weren't affected as directly.

Unfortunately, 9/11 also gave rise to a lot of anti-Muslim bigotry -- and anti-Sikh bigotry too (because everyone wearing a turban was assumed to be a follower of Osama Bin Laden) -- so the "unity" was far from total.

And then, several years later, the 9/11 "inside job" conspiracy claims began spreading like wildfire, and, along with them, a revival of grand conspiracy ideology in general, much of it reminiscent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, targeting not just Jews but also Pagans, occultists, and Satanists. So it seemed to me like we were entering a general crisis of religion-based bigotry.

I really don't recall anybody being nicer as a consequence, even though I live roughly an hour (slightly more according to Google) from the Pentagon which was the target of the "other" attack. I just recall seeing American flags displayed everywhere and people wearing American Flag pins at work or social events. Also flag decals on cars were very much a thing. A popular thing was to create a flag in a link fence using red, white, and blue Solo cups. In other words, hyper-patriotism.

Image

Then the hyper-patriotism led to levels of militarism not seen since the Cold War. Unfortunately, this inspired a lot of people to feel that America had gotten "back to normal".



I think I remember everyone being nicer, but I was 10. I don't recall seeing those solo cup flags in people's yards, but I think that was more because not many people in the area had chain link fences. I did see them on bridges and schools. Everyone suddenly had an american flag flying from their house and often all sorts of other places. I think it wasn't until a couple years later that the yellow ribbons also went up everywhere. What also went up instantly was the security pressense. Jersey berriers, national guard vehicles, police, ect... What I really remember were those fighter jets continuously patrolling for several months.


Another thing I forgot to mention in my post is that the cops in the city all drove with their lightbars flashing and used sirens continuously for a few months, then they switched to just lightbars flashing all the time, and finally after a few years they reduced that to just the running lights on the lightbars which they still do now.


Also, the anthrax attacks happened not that long after which scared everyone too. My Mom's work had her do mandatory training on a variety of new security safety issues and package safety was one of them. I don't remember whether the sniper attacks happened before or after the anthrax attacks. But the whole thing was a really crazy and hectic time.

They then came out with the terror alert level that was like a fire danger level for forest fires. Todays terror alert level is Orange! And you were supposed to then act differently accordingly like being more alert to suspicious things, people, actions, ect... Of course, your were always supposed to, and still to this day, be aware of such thing and report them, " If you see something, say something."



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17 Sep 2022, 3:58 pm

MaxE wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
MaxE wrote:
However the "unity" was mostly expressed just as public displays of hyper-patriotism

Here in NYC it was mostly public displays of mourning, plus (many) people being generally nicer to each other than usual.

I can see how it might have been different in other parts of the country that weren't affected as directly.

Unfortunately, 9/11 also gave rise to a lot of anti-Muslim bigotry -- and anti-Sikh bigotry too (because everyone wearing a turban was assumed to be a follower of Osama Bin Laden) -- so the "unity" was far from total.

And then, several years later, the 9/11 "inside job" conspiracy claims began spreading like wildfire, and, along with them, a revival of grand conspiracy ideology in general, much of it reminiscent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, targeting not just Jews but also Pagans, occultists, and Satanists. So it seemed to me like we were entering a general crisis of religion-based bigotry.

I really don't recall anybody being nicer as a consequence, even though I live roughly an hour (slightly more according to Google) from the Pentagon which was the target of the "other" attack. I just recall seeing American flags displayed everywhere and people wearing American Flag pins at work or social events. Also flag decals on cars were very much a thing. A popular thing was to create a flag in a link fence using red, white, and blue Solo cups. In other words, hyper-patriotism.

Image

Then the hyper-patriotism led to levels of militarism not seen since the Cold War. Unfortunately, this inspired a lot of people to feel that America had gotten "back to normal".

On nearby Long Island we had both the flags all over the place and people being nicer to each other. Most people knew somebody who was killed, had to flee, or who were recovery workers. If they did not know somebody directly affected, they knew somebody who knew somebody. We had our share of hate crimes but there was a lot of sadness. The newspapers for months ran profiles of “the missing”. The patriotic displays and songs were more emotional, tearful then lets nuke the A-Rabs. There was a lot of open love for the cops, firemen, and other public service workers. This was in contrast to the Vietnam era when there was a lot of “a good hippie, is a dead hippie” sentiment.

That is why there was a lot of confusion and upset with the anti cop sentiment and riots following the murder of George Floyd.


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17 Sep 2022, 8:47 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
On nearby Long Island we had both the flags all over the place and people being nicer to each other. Most people knew somebody who was killed, had to flee, or who were recovery workers. If they did not know somebody directly affected, they knew somebody who knew somebody. We had our share of hate crimes but there was a lot of sadness. The newspapers for months ran profiles of “the missing”. The patriotic displays and songs were more emotional, tearful then lets nuke the A-Rabs.

Now that I think of it, there were a lot of flags here in NYC too, although the overall tone was sadness rather than militant patriotism.

There were also quite a few Muslims and South Asians who displayed American flags defensively, to prove that they weren't Al Qaeda sympathizers.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
There was a lot of open love for the cops, firemen, and other public service workers.

I remember this too.


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18 Sep 2022, 4:13 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
There were also quite a few Muslims and South Asians who displayed American flags defensively, to prove that they weren't Al Qaeda sympathizers.

I remember that also. The sad part is that the vast majority immigrated here to get away from jihadism.


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18 Sep 2022, 4:40 am

A few months after 9/11 the lights went out at my office and my first thought was they just blew up the Indian Point nuclear power plant and we are in big trouble. As it turned out some worker accidentally cut a line. One day in August 2003 the lights went out in my office again so my first thought was ho-hum another very local routine event. It was anything but. For a brief time until it was established it was not terrorism people did freak out.


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