Dealing with lack of Jesus the Messiah in Israel

Page 2 of 4 [ 55 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,359
Location: temperate zone

02 Oct 2022, 7:09 pm

Your narrative ranges from slightly off ...to embarrasingly WAY off.

"Aramaic" is a language. Not a friggin ethnic group.

It was a Semitic language originating in Syria that became a trading lingua franca throughout the eastern Mediterranean. And it drove out local languages and became a first language of many. And it is STILL spoken in some pockets of the Mideast today. Jesus spoke Aramaic. But he was a Jew. Aramaic is akin to Hebrew (which was already an extinct dead liturgical language in Jesus' time), and is also akin to Arabic which would sweep across the region seven centuries later.

Jesus was an ethnic Jew, who lived in the Roman province of Judea. But he, and every other Jew in Judea in his time spoke Aramaic.

Calling him "an Aramaic" is as boneheaded as calling a Kikuyu tribesman in Kenya who speaks Swahili (the lingua franca of east Africa) "A Swahili".

The "Essenes" were a sect who supposedly paved the way for Christ (essentially monks who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls). But Jesus was not a member of their sect.

The Jesus movement was like the Mormons to mainline Christians today. Viewed as a heretical sect from the get go even when they were still solidly only a Jewish cult.

The Romans had to break up riots in the Jewish quarter of Rome when Jews would mob those fellow Jews among them who were 'followers of Christos'.


St. Paul was advocating preaching to Gentiles before the Temple was destroyed in the final Jewish-Roman wars.

Jews (ancient and modern) vary in opinions about things including their religion. So I avoided saying that ALL Jews are waiting for their messiah. Some probably dont buy into that belief.

But I suppose most do.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,990

02 Oct 2022, 7:29 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Your narrative ranges from slightly off ...to embarrasingly WAY off.

"Aramaic" is a language. Not a friggin ethnic group.

It was a Semitic language originating in Syria that became a trading lingua franca throughout the eastern Mediterranean. And it drove out local languages and became a first language of many. And it is STILL spoken in some pockets of the Mideast today. Jesus spoke Aramaic. But he was a Jew. Aramaic is akin to Hebrew (which was already an extinct dead liturgical language in Jesus' time), and is also akin to Arabic which would sweep across the region seven centuries later.

Jesus was an ethnic Jew, who lived in the Roman province of Judea. But he, and every other Jew in Judea in his time spoke Aramaic.

Calling him "an Aramaic" is as boneheaded as calling a Kikuyu tribesman in Kenya who speaks Swahili (the lingua franca of east Africa) "A Swahili".

The "Essenes" were a sect who supposedly paved the way for Christ (essentially monks who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls). But Jesus was not a member of their sect.

The Jesus movement was like the Mormons to mainline Christians today. Viewed as a heretical sect from the get go even when they were still solidly only a Jewish cult.

The Romans had to break up riots in the Jewish quarter of Rome when Jews would mob those fellow Jews among them who were 'followers of Christos'.


St. Paul was advocating preaching to Gentiles before the Temple was destroyed in the final Jewish-Roman wars.

Jews (ancient and modern) vary in opinions about things including their religion. So I avoided saying that ALL Jews are waiting for their messiah. Some probably dont buy into that belief.

But I suppose most do.


so.....aramaic speaking.... :roll:



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

02 Oct 2022, 8:36 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Trouble is that among religious people (at least in the Abrahamic faiths) you cant treat religion like a buffet in which you get to savior a bit of everything. Both Christians and Jews will ...crucify you...if you suggest that the other religion had the right "messiah" ( or even had an okay Messiah worth savoring). Lol! Makes discussion difficult.


On a Christian side, they are okay with mixing in Judaism, as long as Jewish Messiah isn't involved. If you say you believe in Christian Messiah, but you want to do Jewish customs, a lot of Christians are just fine with that. But if you say you want the Jewish version of Messiah, then you are right: Christians won't like it, since Jewish Messiah is Christian antichrist.

On a Jewish side its a different story. Jews won't appreciate Christian customs in any form (Messiah or not).



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

02 Oct 2022, 8:40 pm

cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
And some Jews are still waiting for their messiah.
.


some? don't you mean all?


In the past it used to be all. But in 20-th and 21-st century its no longer the case. Some reform Jews say Messiah is no longer a person but, instead, its a certain age or certain phenomenon. And then of course there are secular Jews who don't believe in Messiah at all.

Which brings to another interesting point. You can believe in any Messiah or no Messiah, and you are still Jew in good standing. But the moment you believe in Jesus as the Messiah you lose your good standing (even if you are devoted Jew in all the other respects).



Barchan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 758

02 Oct 2022, 9:52 pm

Noamx wrote:
in Israel, there arent many Christians if at all. The few which exist dont live in the area I live at in Israel too

You might have better luck talking to Muslims in Israel. In the religion of Islam (all sects) Jesus is universally respected as a prophet and messenger of God and the messiah for all humanity



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,990

03 Oct 2022, 1:08 am

Barchan wrote:
Noamx wrote:
in Israel, there arent many Christians if at all. The few which exist dont live in the area I live at in Israel too

You might have better luck talking to Muslims in Israel. In the religion of Islam (all sects) Jesus is universally respected as a prophet and messenger of God and the messiah for all humanity


You mean Nabi Isa?



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

03 Oct 2022, 1:35 am

cyberdad wrote:
Barchan wrote:
Noamx wrote:
in Israel, there arent many Christians if at all. The few which exist dont live in the area I live at in Israel too

You might have better luck talking to Muslims in Israel. In the religion of Islam (all sects) Jesus is universally respected as a prophet and messenger of God and the messiah for all humanity


You mean Nabi Isa?


Thats just a different language. In Arabic it would be Isa, in English Jesus. They don't mind calling him Jesus. I actually talked to them and they did.

Same with God vs Allah. One is English word, the other is Arabic, but they mean the same thing. So Muslims have no issues saying God.

Christians, on the other hand, do have a problem with the word Allah and would say its an idol. But that is just ignorance, since Allah is simply God in Arabic. So if you can translate God into French or into German, why can't you translate it into Arabic? Arabic New Testament uses the word Allah and it is just fine by Arab Christians.

However, the REAL area of disagreement is the question of deity of Jesus. Christians believe He is God, Muslims don't. They both agree he is the Messiah, though. So I guess if OP is looking for common denominator, he should just use the word Messiah (or even Christ as it is a translation of Messiah) and he will be fine.

By the way, I am not sure why OP would even want to bring up deity anyway since he says he is agnostic. But then again, I am not sure why he wants to talk about Messiah either. So who knows. I would love to hear his ethnic background and what motivates him to talk about those topics.

I looked at his introductory post, he says he was born in Israel. But then I am not sure why is it such a shocker to him that they don't like to talk about Jesus. Did he travel outside the country recently?



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,990

03 Oct 2022, 2:36 am

QFT wrote:
[
By the way, I am not sure why OP would even want to bring up deity anyway since he says he is agnostic. But then again, I am not sure why he wants to talk about Messiah either. So who knows. I would love to hear his ethnic background and what motivates him to talk about those topics.?


I am rather curious what he's doing in Israel given he is agnostic? When I was in my 20s I had plans to live in a kibbutz for a year but as with some other plans I had (which included working as a microbiologist in Kuwait and teaching English in Japan) nothing came of it.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

03 Oct 2022, 2:42 am

cyberdad wrote:
I am rather curious what he's doing in Israel given he is agnostic?


He said he was born in Israel. So its only natural to live where you are born.

There are plenty agnostics and atheists in Israel. Which is one of the double standards Jews have. They are just fine if their fellow Jews reject God altogether. But if one of their fellow Jews believes in Jesus then suddenly its a huge problem.

The question I am a lot more curious about is: if he was born and raised in Israel, why does he have a need to talk about Jesus? Did he encounter missionaries, or what happened?

cyberdad wrote:
When I was in my 20s I had plans to live in a kibbutz for a year


Thats really interesting. Are you Jewish?



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,990

03 Oct 2022, 2:43 am

QFT wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I am rather curious what he's doing in Israel given he is agnostic?


He said he was born in Israel. So its only natural to live where you are born.


Oh! then his parents chose to live in Israel. Now this is a mystery,



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,990

03 Oct 2022, 2:51 am

QFT wrote:
Thats really interesting. Are you Jewish?


LOL! no but when I was in my 20s I went through a phase when I was very very pro-Israel. I kind of lived vicariously through epic stories I read of the rise of Israel through writers like Leon Uris and romanticised how Israeli's made the "desert bloom" so wanted to be part of that human enterprise,

BTW the kibbutz model was borrowed by Auroville in southern India which is a famous experimental town started by a Jewish woman named Mirra Alfassa. The concept is actually quite enlightened and self-sustaining (Auroville still thrives after 50 years). Despite some naughty things done by the state of Israel I am still a great admirer of the jews and what they have achieved throughout their history.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

03 Oct 2022, 2:58 am

cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
Thats really interesting. Are you Jewish?


LOL! no but when I was in my 20s I went through a phase when I was very very pro-Israel. I kind of lived vicariously through epic stories I read of the rise of Israel through writers like Leon Uris and romanticised how Israeli's made the "desert bloom" so wanted to be part of that human enterprise,


But if you are not Jewish, would they even allow you into kibbutz?

cyberdad wrote:
BTW the kibbutz model was borrowed by Auroville in southern India which is a famous experimental town started by a Jewish woman named Mirra Alfassa. The concept is actually quite enlightened and self-sustaining (Auroville still thrives after 50 years).


Wow that is really interesting. Did Alfassa move to India from elsewhere or was she part of local Indian Jewish population. I know there is Indian Jewish population that was there for many centuries, but its really tiny.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,359
Location: temperate zone

03 Oct 2022, 4:54 am

cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I am rather curious what he's doing in Israel given he is agnostic?


He said he was born in Israel. So its only natural to live where you are born.


Oh! then his parents chose to live in Israel. Now this is a mystery,



You can be an ethnic Jew, and still be an atheist, or an agnostic. There is such a thing as a "secular Jew".

I always assumed that the OP was an Ethnic Jew, of European extraction, like the core of Israel's population. But I could be just 'making assumptions'.

Though I never assumed he was either religious, or non religious. Either thing is likely.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,990

03 Oct 2022, 5:03 am

QFT wrote:
But if you are not Jewish, would they even allow you into kibbutz?
.


From the 1940s kibbutz mainly attracted young jews on Aliya. However from the 1960s young idealistic westerners starting coming in droves and they were enthusiastic and made to feel welcome.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,990

03 Oct 2022, 5:16 am

QFT wrote:
Wow that is really interesting. Did Alfassa move to India from elsewhere or was she part of local Indian Jewish population. I know there is Indian Jewish population that was there for many centuries, but its really tiny.


There's been Jewish colonies on the west coast of India since the time of King Solomon. The jewish words for spices and timber appear to be the same as Tamil (a south Indian language) as well as rice and peacocks.

On the east coast jewish traders came with the British to Madras and Calcutta.

Malfassa was actually from a wealthy Jewish family in Europe who became enamoured by hinduism and became a disciple of the mystic Sri Aurobindo. After he passed, she continued his teaching and became a famous teacher herself. Among her devotees was the Indian prime minister Indira Gandhi. She started Auroville as an experiment in human cooperation and the city has attracted people from 70 different countries who contribute/live in Auroville in every type of profession.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 29,990

03 Oct 2022, 5:17 am

naturalplastic wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I am rather curious what he's doing in Israel given he is agnostic?


He said he was born in Israel. So its only natural to live where you are born.


Oh! then his parents chose to live in Israel. Now this is a mystery,



You can be an ethnic Jew, and still be an atheist, or an agnostic. There is such a thing as a "secular Jew".

I always assumed that the OP was an Ethnic Jew, of European extraction, like the core of Israel's population. But I could be just 'making assumptions'.

Though I never assumed he was either religious, or non religious. Either thing is likely.


That makes sense