Dealing with lack of Jesus the Messiah in Israel

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QFT
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04 Oct 2022, 3:35 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
klanka wrote:
Anyway , Israel needs some more evangelists to go over there


That seems a little condescending. Why would they need people to go there and lie to them about some dead heretic?


I thought you are atheist? As such, you wouldn't be in a position to say who is heretic and who isn't? As a liberal, wouldn't *you* be considered a heretic?

Which confirms one of the points I was making. Its funny how pious Jews who call Jesus heretic would side with gay-loving atheists who call Jesus too religious.

funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
There are plenty agnostics and atheists in Israel. Which is one of the double standards Jews have. They are just fine if their fellow Jews reject God altogether. But if one of their fellow Jews believes in Jesus then suddenly its a huge problem.


It's not really that unreasonable. Think of it like the difference between a transparency value and a hue value. They can conceive of agnostics and atheists as the right hue, just closer to transparent.

Converts to Christianity or Islam or whatever aren't more transparent, they're the wrong hue by choice, essentially traitors who have chosen another faith.


I am not sure what the word "hue" is. Can you define it?

By transparency are you referring to "less color". As in, everyone is religious, atheists are just a lot less so than others? So Jewish atheists have very light Jewish color, but still Jewish one, while Christian atheists have very light Christian color? Is that what you meant?

In any case, the other thing to point out is that if a Jew converts to one of the Eastern religions its not nearly as big of a deal as converting to Christianity.



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04 Oct 2022, 3:44 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
klanka wrote:
Anyway , Israel needs some more evangelists to go over there


That seems a little condescending. Why would they need people to go there and lie to them about some dead heretic?


Yes.
And its not as if Israel isnt already swamped by zillions of American Fundy End-times fanatics every tourist season already.


Actually you have a good point. But no, not in that missionaries should stop. But in that they should have a different approach. Repeating another 100 times something people already heard 1000 times is not going to help. What will help, however, is different approach, not more numbers. As in, speak to them in their language.

Yes, Christians tried to do it, when they established Messianic congregations. But anyone familiar with Judaism would know that it is just a bunch of Christianity in Jewish trappings. What they need is not Jewish cultural trappings, but somebody who can actually think Jewishly. I don't think Christian missionaries are on that level yet. They know cultural trappings but they don't know the Jewish thought. If they were to familiarize themselves with Jewish thought, they would be far more effective missionaries.



funeralxempire
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04 Oct 2022, 4:05 pm

QFT wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
That seems a little condescending. Why would they need people to go there and lie to them about some dead heretic?


I thought you are atheist? As such, you wouldn't be in a position to say who is heretic and who isn't? As a liberal, wouldn't *you* be considered a heretic?


Are you disputing that Jesus would be considered a heretic by most mainstream Jewish traditions, or just deflecting?
I'm not suggesting that I wouldn't also count, but that's irrelevant since no one's claiming I'm their messiah.

QFT wrote:
Which confirms one of the points I was making. Its funny how pious Jews who call Jesus heretic would side with gay-loving atheists who call Jesus too religious.


It's not a matter of too religious, it's a matter of you're doing it wrong. Not all religious disputes boil down to not being religious enough, they're often because one group considers the other group wrong and profane. Not being religious enough is easier to swallow than preaching the profane.

QFT wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
There are plenty agnostics and atheists in Israel. Which is one of the double standards Jews have. They are just fine if their fellow Jews reject God altogether. But if one of their fellow Jews believes in Jesus then suddenly its a huge problem.


It's not really that unreasonable. Think of it like the difference between a transparency value and a hue value. They can conceive of agnostics and atheists as the right hue, just closer to transparent.

Converts to Christianity or Islam or whatever aren't more transparent, they're the wrong hue by choice, essentially traitors who have chosen another faith.


I am not sure what the word "hue" is. Can you define it?

By transparency are you referring to "less color". As in, everyone is religious, atheists are just a lot less so than others? So Jewish atheists have very light Jewish color, but still Jewish one, while Christian atheists have very light Christian color? Is that what you meant?

In any case, the other thing to point out is that if a Jew converts to one of the Eastern religions its not nearly as big of a deal as converting to Christianity.


Hue means colour, I was thinking of the terms like when you're working in Paint.NET.
You got the metaphor though.

I'm curious if maybe there's something about Christianity in particular that's the source for the cringe. It might be due to the history of antisemitism in Christian lands, the cringe being part of how their identity preserves itself from a force that sought to assimilate and otherwise eliminate them.

If Islam is also cringed from, I'd anticipate it's related to identity and historic (and modern) attempts at assimilation.

If Islam is cringed from less I'd wonder if it's also on the grounds of the Messiah claim and the trinity vs. strict monotheism.

But, for people who's understanding is that their faith is the original and correct form, people with updates get annoying. Think of how many Christians can't stand Mormon missionaries. Well, from their perspective all the missionaries are guys who got it wrong and won't shut up about trying to make more people get it wrong too.


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05 Oct 2022, 2:06 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
There are numerous Christian churches in Jerusalem. Many Christians visit the prominent places in Israel that are talked about in the New Testament. It shouldn't be difficult to find out where all you can meet up with Christians in Israel via the internet.

Thats all already been covered on this thread. He said that the Net isnt good enough. He wants face to face talk with non Jews, or Christians, or whatever. Others have suggested that he interact with Christian tourists. And youre right that there are SOME Christians (many Palestinian Arabs for example) in Israel.

My suggestion was that he use the internet to find Christians in real life. Also there are Christian Catholic churches in the Holy Land, especially in and around Jerusalem. Most of the churches are built on or near Biblical landmarks. Like the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.



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05 Oct 2022, 3:27 am

Tried to reply and it keeps going back a pge and deleting what I put so instead of a longer reply I will just share an interesting link.

www.arkdiscovery.com

I may have shared this site before. It has a lot about historic biblical finds and how thwy relate to biblical events.



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05 Oct 2022, 7:57 am

MaxE wrote:
I spent about a month at a kibbutz almost 50 years ago. When I have time I may offer some detailed observations. I forget how the thread got diverted to this topic (and away from Jesus) but one impression I have is that kibbutzim are probably way off most modern Israelis' radar.

I'll try to describe the kibbutz with as few words as possible. I'll begin by saying the founders of the kibbutz went through some rough times back when the State of Israel was formally declared, you can imagine that stability and scarcely varying day-to-day routine didn't much bother them.

I'll start with accommodations. Younger members, including newlyweds, basically had a room which opened to the outside. These rooms were arranged in rows and shared one bathroom which had the usual amenities including a shower. I don't recall much about the "nicer" accommodations but must assume they were indeed nicer. There was a dining hall where meals were served. Some people would apparently collect their meals at the dining hall and bring home to eat in private. There was also a common building that had a small shop at which necessities could be purchased and a clubroom, and I suppose offices although I don't remember that much. Minyans also took place there, although I don't think most members participated.

The kibbutz engaged in agriculture and also had a factory where they made some plastic things. The factory was for members who had gotten too old for the agricultural stuff. Agriculture consisted of dairy, poultry, and oranges. An interesting aspect of the agriculture was they basically worked 8 hour days, so they had more free time than the typical farmer. Of course they did work a six-day week.

There might have been more I didn't see. It's possible there were members who practiced medicine etc. It stands to reason that somebody growing up there might wish to matriculate at university and they wouldn't want them to leave permanently. Members my own age were all on active military duty at the time. There were however quite a few young Jews from Latin America staying there. At least one began military service while I was there. I got the impression these young immigrants were people who had faired poorly in school and weren't candidates for university or leadership in family businesses, in the countries where they'd grown up.

The existence there seemed secure but very humdrum. The food was certainly very healthy, not a single artificial additive or genetic modification. I think it would have taken a unique sort of person to want to spend their whole life there. I imagine the early kibbutzniks were motivated by Zionism but even 50 years ago the future of those kibbutzim was in some doubt.


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25 Oct 2022, 4:16 pm

Noamx wrote:
Well, as some of you might know, I live in Israel. In Israel, we're waiting for the messiah(Judaism), but in countries like the US, Canada, Australia, UK, and so on, the messiah had arrived for them(Christianity).

The problem I am dealing with and have to deal with for as long as I live in Israel, is the fact no matter what I would say or do, nobody would accept a conversation about Jesus or about him being the messiah. Nobody here around me thinks he is the messiah, because there are only Jews here.

Myself, being an agnostic person mostly, believe religions in generally can make people live their lifes in a wrong way, and the whole "you have to believe" concept is something I disagree with. But still, I have to find a way to still believe Jesus could have been the messiah, while still avoiding chat/conversation about this subject and avoiding pissing other people off(Jews in Israel).

Can you explain what can I do about it? After all, in Israel, there arent many Christians if at all. The few which exist dont live in the area I live at in Israel too. So nobody to talk to about Jesus being the messiah, nobody to share feelings about this with, and so on. Except the WrongPlanet Forums of course, but thats the internet, not real people I meet in my life.

Hope you can please help me with this problem?

Also, last question, if I dont think Jesus was the Messiah for sure, but was just a good person, and so on, is that okay? Or I dont "count" as someone who would be "saved" and get to Heaven after I die, although I dont really believe in that, but it still makes sense a little bit.

Thanks!

Are you sure you are agnostic, this isn't something a agnostic person thinks about frequently?