Missing and murdered Australian Indigenous women & children

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magz
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25 Oct 2022, 1:37 am

Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
We've been there.
Domestic violence is a real problem of practically any traumatized society.
Poland after WWII was just like that, too.
It requires several generations of stable well-being despite all internal struggles to be able to adress the original traumas and grow healthy.

With what's going on, the Indigenous societes are likely to stay traumatized :(
In the passed, anyone who suggested there was an aboriginal domestic violence problem/crisis was called a racist.
Aboriginal women who spoke up about domestic abuse were silenced, and this is why the problem hasn't been properly addressed.
The media was complicit in not exposing the problem.

"Politics before Compassion" is indefensible.
I do agree that making various things taboo does not help with actual social problems.

Being "tough on crime" also does not help with actual social problems, it usually makes them worse.

Unfortunately, actually adressing social problems requires perspectives much longer than next elections. Where I live, countless NGOs do a lot, cooperate with local governments and lobby for their causes.

But I think is needs to be adressed from the "us" perspective, not "them" perspective. I'm now thinking about my own nation. If someone e.g. from Germany came in and told us we live our lives wrong, we'd only hate them, even if their intentions were best.
You need to deeply integrate into the indigenous societes in order to really help there.


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cyberdad
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25 Oct 2022, 1:43 am

A previous administration under prime minister John Howard tried a military style intervention in remote communities (ostensibly for the pretext women and children) in the northern territory that failed miserably.

The only way to properly solve this issue is to address domestic violence as a national issue (which it is) and to work on improving literacy and education for girls so they can access proper healthcare and get gainful employment and support families without relying on men.



Pepe
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25 Oct 2022, 2:19 am

magz wrote:
But I think is needs to be adressed from the "us" perspective, not "them" perspective. I'm now thinking about my own nation. If someone e.g. from Germany came in and told us we live our lives wrong, we'd only hate them, even if their intentions were best.
You need to deeply integrate into the indigenous societes in order to really help there.


Are you aware that Jacinta Nampijinpa Price is an aboriginal woman?
Have you read what she said?

viewtopic.php?t=409549#p9163115


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


Pepe
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25 Oct 2022, 2:23 am

cyberdad wrote:

The only way to properly solve this issue is to address domestic violence as a national issue (which it is) and to work on improving literacy and education for girls so they can access proper healthcare and get gainful employment and support families without relying on men.


You are aware that the major cause of domestic abuse in the aboriginal community is caused by alcohol and drug consumption, right?


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


magz
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25 Oct 2022, 2:51 am

cyberdad wrote:
A previous administration under prime minister John Howard tried a military style intervention in remote communities (ostensibly for the pretext women and children) in the northern territory that failed miserably.
How (un)surprising...

cyberdad wrote:
The only way to properly solve this issue is to address domestic violence as a national issue (which it is) and to work on improving literacy and education for girls so they can access proper healthcare and get gainful employment and support families without relying on men.
Work on improving literacy and education for both girls and boys, so life offers more to them and they can seek solutions to their pain elsewhere than in booze and drugs.

I'm thinking about what helped here. First, safe space. Our own space where we don't have to fear external intervention, don't have to fear that anything we do or say can be used against us. Mind it, indigenous Australians and Americans are survivors of genocides. Deep, intense distrust is an obvious trait of genocide survivors. This is how those who survived did it. But you can't help someone without building trust first. It's a work for generations, look at how Germany still needs to prove they're not who they were 80 years ago. They prove it again and again and our trust is still limited.

I know how being survivors affects us and Indigenous Australians and Americans have it much worse, additionally ended up stuck "married to their rapists".


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magz
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25 Oct 2022, 2:57 am

Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
But I think is needs to be adressed from the "us" perspective, not "them" perspective. I'm now thinking about my own nation. If someone e.g. from Germany came in and told us we live our lives wrong, we'd only hate them, even if their intentions were best.
You need to deeply integrate into the indigenous societes in order to really help there.


Are you aware that Jacinta Nampijinpa Price is an aboriginal woman?
Have you read what she said?

viewtopic.php?t=409549#p9163115
So people like her need to be given tools to effectively adress the problems, not just complain about them. And to this, they need to understand the mechanisms that lead to problems. There's a lot of psychology studies on abusive families and how to improve. AA is a good source for non-professionals.

Pepe wrote:
You are aware that the major cause of domestic abuse in the aboriginal community is caused by alcohol and drug consumption, right?
Where it isn't?

It was exactly like that in post-WWII Poland. That's how a traumatized community copes.


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cyberdad
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25 Oct 2022, 4:35 am

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:

The only way to properly solve this issue is to address domestic violence as a national issue (which it is) and to work on improving literacy and education for girls so they can access proper healthcare and get gainful employment and support families without relying on men.


You are aware that the major cause of domestic abuse in the aboriginal community is caused by alcohol and drug consumption, right?


You can't stop the underlying causes of drug addiction using the police or army



cyberdad
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25 Oct 2022, 4:39 am

magz wrote:
Work on improving literacy and education on both girls and boys, so life offers more to them and they can seek solutions to their pain elsewhere than in booze and drugs..


I think programs to uplift girls in depressed communities has worked in other parts of the world. Education and opportunity for employment for girls is a pathway to remove them from the environment where they are at risk. But yes, boys also need education as well. But the priority should be for girls first.



magz
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25 Oct 2022, 5:03 am

cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
Work on improving literacy and education on both girls and boys, so life offers more to them and they can seek solutions to their pain elsewhere than in booze and drugs..

I think programs to uplift girls in depressed communities has worked in other parts of the world. Education and opportunity for employment for girls is a pathway to remove them from the environment where they are at risk. But yes, boys also need education as well. But the priority should be for girls first.

One thing that I believe we should pay attention to is that educated, well-off members are not automatically removed from their original communities.
I was shocked when I learned that Indigenous Canadians lose their "indigenous" status and rights after finishing high school. What? That's the way to ensure indigenous communities are kept poor and uneducated, "second-class" citizens! In broad daylight!

Outback communities don't benefit from their gifted members leaving for school and then for the city, even if the gifted members do benefit from this a lot. How can they be encouraged to work on improving their own communities of origin? How can their communities be encouraged to accept them back, not finding them distrusted "coconuts"?


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Pepe
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25 Oct 2022, 7:47 am

magz wrote:
Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
But I think is needs to be adressed from the "us" perspective, not "them" perspective. I'm now thinking about my own nation. If someone e.g. from Germany came in and told us we live our lives wrong, we'd only hate them, even if their intentions were best.
You need to deeply integrate into the indigenous societes in order to really help there.


Are you aware that Jacinta Nampijinpa Price is an aboriginal woman?
Have you read what she said?

viewtopic.php?t=409549#p9163115
So people like her need to be given tools to effectively adress the problems, not just complain about them. And to this, they need to understand the mechanisms that lead to problems. There's a lot of psychology studies on abusive families and how to improve. AA is a good source for non-professionals.

Pepe wrote:
You are aware that the major cause of domestic abuse in the aboriginal community is caused by alcohol and drug consumption, right?
Where it isn't?

It was exactly like that in post-WWII Poland. That's how a traumatized community copes.


You seem to be missing the point.
The problem was "swept under the carpet", and the victims were silenced by their own paternalistic communities.
It was inherently a cultural problem (I.E., male domination) in the community and politicized by activists.

I have trouble believing your community went through the same circumstance.
I am happy to be educated on this.

BTW, You know I don't just invent these things, right?
This is coming from educated aboriginal women, and who here has the right to silence them?

I believe we have had this conversation previously.
I hope it ends with greater mutual understanding this time.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


kraftiekortie
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25 Oct 2022, 7:53 am

Indeed, we have to seek to get at the root causes of all that alcoholism and drug addiction.

Additionally, we have to move beyond the "blame game," and encourage oppressed people to be responsible for themselves while being assisted by outside agencies. I don't believe an assumption that every member of an "oppressor race" is an "oppressor" does any good.

It's a two-way street.



Pepe
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25 Oct 2022, 7:58 am

magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
Work on improving literacy and education on both girls and boys, so life offers more to them and they can seek solutions to their pain elsewhere than in booze and drugs..

I think programs to uplift girls in depressed communities has worked in other parts of the world. Education and opportunity for employment for girls is a pathway to remove them from the environment where they are at risk. But yes, boys also need education as well. But the priority should be for girls first.

One thing that I believe we should pay attention to is that educated, well-off members are not automatically removed from their original communities.
I was shocked when I learned that Indigenous Canadians lose their "indigenous" status and rights after finishing high school. What? That's the way to ensure indigenous communities are kept poor and uneducated, "second-class" citizens! In broad daylight!

Outback communities don't benefit from their gifted members leaving for school and then for the city, even if the gifted members do benefit from this a lot. How can they be encouraged to work on improving their own communities of origin? How can their communities be encouraged to accept them back, not finding them distrusted "coconuts"?


Please keep in mind that, in all probability, the circumstances in Canada are significantly different to what is happening in Australia.
I believe the term "Apples and Oranges" may be applicable here.

Part of the politicisation of the problem here in Australia is that any attempt by authorities to save aboriginal children from an abusive domestic environment is met with "stolen children" allegations.
Where non-aboriginal children would be removed in such a situation, authorities are not acting for fear of political ramifications.

Hence: "Politics before Compassion."


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


Pepe
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25 Oct 2022, 8:06 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Indeed, we have to seek to get at the root causes of all that alcoholism and drug addiction.

Additionally, we have to move beyond the "blame game," and encourage oppressed people to be responsible for themselves while being assisted by outside agencies. I don't believe an assumption that every member of an "oppressor race" is an "oppressor" does any good.

It's a two-way street.


An "oppressor race"?
What is this thing? :scratch:

Has anyone here made such an assertion?
I doubt anyone would be so audacious as to make such a ridiculous generalisation.
Well, not in Australia, at least. ;)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


magz
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25 Oct 2022, 8:28 am

Pepe wrote:
You seem to be missing the point.
The problem was "swept under the carpet", and the victims were silenced by their own paternalistic communities.
It's entirely possible that traditional patriarchy adds to it - but sweeping internal abuse under the carpet is exactly what people do when they don't trust the outside legal systems. And this is exactly what genocide survivors experience.

I give you an example from my own backyard: why didn't John Paul II appropriately react to sexual abuse in the church? Because he grew up in an environment where accusations like that were weaponised by the communists. So he had a reflex of "laundrying your dirty clothes in your own home", not letting secular authorities touch it because where he was from, secular authorities were doing what they could to destroy the church.

That's analogous to genocide survivors: your experience of external law enforcement is that they try to destroy you, so you shield every aspect of your life from them, silence, sweep under the carpet, so they don't see your vulnerability.
Secrecy and distrust is how you survive. It takes generations to learn other ways.


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kraftiekortie
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25 Oct 2022, 8:52 am

What I meant, to put it simply, is that governments should pay heed to the problems of "minorities"-----but also that "minorities" should also assume responsibility for themselves.

If both would cooperate in this way, there would be a better chance for positive results for all.



magz
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25 Oct 2022, 9:02 am

Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
Work on improving literacy and education on both girls and boys, so life offers more to them and they can seek solutions to their pain elsewhere than in booze and drugs..

I think programs to uplift girls in depressed communities has worked in other parts of the world. Education and opportunity for employment for girls is a pathway to remove them from the environment where they are at risk. But yes, boys also need education as well. But the priority should be for girls first.

One thing that I believe we should pay attention to is that educated, well-off members are not automatically removed from their original communities.
I was shocked when I learned that Indigenous Canadians lose their "indigenous" status and rights after finishing high school. What? That's the way to ensure indigenous communities are kept poor and uneducated, "second-class" citizens! In broad daylight!

Outback communities don't benefit from their gifted members leaving for school and then for the city, even if the gifted members do benefit from this a lot. How can they be encouraged to work on improving their own communities of origin? How can their communities be encouraged to accept them back, not finding them distrusted "coconuts"?


Please keep in mind that, in all probability, the circumstances in Canada are significantly different to what is happening in Australia.
I believe the term "Apples and Oranges" may be applicable here.

Part of the politicisation of the problem here in Australia is that any attempt by authorities to save aboriginal children from an abusive domestic environment is met with "stolen children" allegations.
Where non-aboriginal children would be removed in such a situation, authorities are not acting for fear of political ramifications.

Hence: "Politics before Compassion."
Polish people tell scary tales about social system of Norway because it removes children for reasons unthinkable here. If the Norse were a ruling class here, what should they do? Remove Polish children and raise them as Norse or tolerate in the "indigenous" families what they would find unacceptable among themselves? Both ways bad...

I think a solution would be giving indigenous communities a level of self-governance on this, so they work out themselves when and how to intervene. Also, when intervening in a given community, try to let the child stay in the same community. That's what courts in Poland prefer to do if possible - send children removed from parents to be raised by their extended family members. Because an established community (family) is seen as something of so much value that it has to be a really life-threatning situation to strip one of this.

Social services of Norway disagree. Luckily, we have separate legal systems.


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