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Doberdoofus
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28 Nov 2022, 2:10 am

Dox47 wrote:
Is there a comedic tradition of women dressing as men and performing exaggerated masculinity for comedic effect?


My first reaction is yeah, of course there is, then I had to rack my brain for examples. There was someone ( don't know her name ) on SNL that impersonated Justin Bieber. Bob , General Melchett's Driver and a highwayman from Blackadder. British comedy duo Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders dressed up as "Dirty Old Men". Chandlers dad in Friends ( Kathleen Turner) The only other example that came close was Julie Andrews pretending to be a man impersonating a woman in Victor/Victoria.

I did a google search and found some I hadn't heard of

First a Girl (1935) – a comedy in which Jessie Matthews dresses as a man.
Sylvia Scarlett (1935) – Katharine Hepburn
The Time of Their Lives (1946) – a comedy in which Marjorie Reynolds's character Melody Allen dresses as a man
I Am Very Macho (1953) – Mexican comedy in which Silvia Pinal cross-dresses as her pilot brother and falls in love with the fleet's captain; remake of 1944's Me ha besado un hombre (A Man Kissed Me)
Pablo and Carolina (1957) – filmed in 1955; Mexican musical comedy in which a socialite played by Irasema Dilián pretends to be her (non-existent) brother
Das Wirtshaus im Spessart (1958) – young countess dresses as a poor boy and joins the robbers to save her friends
Just One of the Guys (1985) – Joyce Hyser plays a boy so she can win a journalism contest
He's a Woman, She's a Man (1994) – Wing (Anita Yuen) is a sassy girl who enters a country-wide, males-only talent search, disguised as a man
Shakespeare in Love (1998) – includes Shakespeare's use of female impersonators in his plays
The Triumph of Love (2001) – Mira Sorvino plays the daughter of a usurper, who disguises herself as a young male scholar named Phocion to get closer to Agis, the rightful heir to the throne
She's the Man (2006) – Amanda Bynes dresses as a man to be accepted in Illyria's boys' soccer team and get revenge in Cornwall; based on the play Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare


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IsabellaLinton
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28 Nov 2022, 2:13 am

I was going to point out all the Shakespearean and Renaissance actors were male. ^
All women's roles whether comedic or tragic were played by men.
They weren't necessarily making fun of gender, though.

Now I'm thinking of Mulan! :heart:



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28 Nov 2022, 8:11 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I was going to point out all the Shakespearean and Renaissance actors were male. ^
All women's roles whether comedic or tragic were played by men.
They weren't necessarily making fun of gender, though.

Now I'm thinking of Mulan! :heart:


I heard that in Japan their kabuki actors also had the roles of female characters played by men.



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28 Nov 2022, 8:34 am

blitzkrieg wrote:
I had never heard of the term until I arrived in this thread & now I wish I hadn't. :)


Sorry about that. Incidently I saw it on Facebook which I rarely post on but wanted to question the word. I had no answers and the post was deleted or removed.


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28 Nov 2022, 10:50 am

Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
This is the first time I ever heard of it. No idea what it is. Is it a TERF term or what?


LOL, there are no such things as TERFs, it's just a meaningless slur.



TERF literally stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. There is nothing slurish about it. Those whiners just can't stand to be called radical feminists. But yet will throw a fit if they're called a bigot so which is it.


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Doberdoofus
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28 Nov 2022, 11:24 am

League_Girl wrote:


TERF literally stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. There is nothing slurish about it. .


I think the jury is still out on that. It is even considered hate speech by some.

Quote:
The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) added an entry for TERF in June 2022, which states that although the term was first intended as a neutral descriptor, it is "now typically regarded as derogatory".[4] OED editor Fiona McPherson explained that because "there is a little bit more nuance behind its usage—it's not always just a straight-out insult", the dictionary's editors opted to explain this rather than simply label the term "derogatory" or "chiefly derogatory"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF


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28 Nov 2022, 11:44 am

Doberdoofus wrote:
League_Girl wrote:


TERF literally stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. There is nothing slurish about it. .


I think the jury is still out on that. It is even considered hate speech by some.

Quote:
The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) added an entry for TERF in June 2022, which states that although the term was first intended as a neutral descriptor, it is "now typically regarded as derogatory".[4] OED editor Fiona McPherson explained that because "there is a little bit more nuance behind its usage—it's not always just a straight-out insult", the dictionary's editors opted to explain this rather than simply label the term "derogatory" or "chiefly derogatory"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF


I guess I am going to go the Dox route on it, I like to go by the original definition. :wink:


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28 Nov 2022, 12:53 pm

Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
This is the first time I ever heard of it. No idea what it is. Is it a TERF term or what?


LOL, there are no such things as TERFs, it's just a meaningless slur.

:|

Come on, I thought you wanted to have rational discussions?

There are absolutely plenty of trans-exclusionary radical feminists. Not all transphobes are TERFs, but a sizeable portion are, including all the people using "women's rights" as a cover for their transphobia.

You've got to get out of this habit of reflexively defending everyone who the average Seattle resident dislikes. I can see why you might think it's a good heuristic, but actually the average "resistance lib" is probably right more often than the people they disagree with.



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28 Nov 2022, 1:40 pm

TERF is usually used in a derogatory manner & as an insult, from my experiences on the internet.



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29 Nov 2022, 6:54 am

Dox47 wrote:
LOL, there are no such things as TERFs, it's just a meaningless slur.

The term "TERF" (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist) has been mis-applied to some women who aren't even feminists, much less radical ones.

However, people who fit the actual, literal meaning of "TERF" certainly do exist.

The term "TERF" originated in debates among feminists. Here is an article about the early history of the term.


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29 Nov 2022, 8:02 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Come on, I thought you wanted to have rational discussions?


Yes, which would include weeding out annoying snarl words that long ago lost any meaning besides "people I don't like", much as some might protest otherwise when their favorite toys are taken away.

The_Walrus wrote:
There are absolutely plenty of trans-exclusionary radical feminists. Not all transphobes are TERFs, but a sizeable portion are, including all the people using "women's rights" as a cover for their transphobia.


I think you know as well as I do that the usage of the word has warped into a generic slur for anyone deemed "anti trans", which I'm putting in scare quotes because all that means these days is someone who doesn't agree with every tenet of trans/gender ideology, which is highly disputed in spite of what all the activist claim. I'll be honest, at this point I pretty much treat any use of the term in earnest as a shibboleth at most, as what is and is not "transphobic" is so mutable and ever changing that trying to define it is an exercise in rhetorical Calvinball.

The_Walrus wrote:
You've got to get out of this habit of reflexively defending everyone who the average Seattle resident dislikes. I can see why you might think it's a good heuristic, but actually the average "resistance lib" is probably right more often than the people they disagree with.


Like I've informed countless others here over the years, mind reading is not the best tack to take with me, especially when I can point to a long record of liberal/progressive positions I've held and defended over the years on here to gainsay the accusation that I'm reacting with some sort of reflexive anti left contrarianism. I've been extraordinarily consistent and clear on this point , what I can't stand are faux intellectuals wielding unearned certainty as a moral club they have no right to. In the case of the trans stuff I strongly suspect that there is going to be an extremely unpleasant reckoning for your side of things once the shear shoddiness of the "science" and flimsiness of the "evidence" that was used to justify all of this mess is exposed to the general public, and the lawsuits start flying from detransitioners and their families, and it will be your (collective) fault for trying to suppress anything you didn't want to hear out of a misguided attempt to protect feelings.


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29 Nov 2022, 2:01 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
LOL, there are no such things as TERFs, it's just a meaningless slur.

The term "TERF" (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist) has been mis-applied to some women who aren't even feminists, much less radical ones.

However, people who fit the actual, literal meaning of "TERF" certainly do exist.

The term "TERF" originated in debates among feminists. Here is an article about the early history of the term.



It's been used the same way as the term transphobia is used. But not all people who say something transphobic is actually transphobic because sometimes it comes from ignorance. People can try to be inclusive only to accidentally say something transphobic because they used a wrong word. It's like how people who aren't really homophobic may say "I don't care if people are gay, that is their choice and I don't care how people live their lives, I just mind my own business" and when people say they don't pay attention to other peoples lifestyles when talking about homosexuality.

And to me lifestyle means living your life like to be having a relationship is a lifestyle, having kids is a lifestyle because I made all these choices, so I have used the term "lifestyle" in the same way for homosexuality when they choose to have relationships because to be a relationship is a choice. I could have chosen to not date men and choose to be single and not have kids but then I would have been lonely and miserable and feeling like I missed out on something wonderful. But I understand people use the term lifestyle differently than I do. If they don't see gay relationships as a lifestyle, then I guess being a parent isn't a lifestyle or when straight people date the opposite sex. I guess relationships aren't a lifestyle either going by their logic.


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29 Nov 2022, 6:35 pm

There is at least a sliver of the parodic to be found in many trans-women. I can immediately understand how the term came to be.


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01 Dec 2022, 9:05 am

Dox47 wrote:
[In the case of the trans stuff I strongly suspect that there is going to be an extremely unpleasant reckoning for your side of things once the shear shoddiness of the "science" and flimsiness of the "evidence" that was used to justify all of this mess is exposed to the general public, and the lawsuits start flying from detransitioners and their families, and it will be your (collective) fault for trying to suppress anything you didn't want to hear out of a misguided attempt to protect feelings.

All due respect, your side of the issue currently completely dominates most institutions, your voices are being amplified to high heaven, you benefit from people’s instinctive conservatism and fear of the unknown, both American Evangelicals and Russian groups are pouring huge amounts of money into activist groups… and yet you’ve barely managed to move the needle. Compare it to how quickly public opinion has shifted on immigration in the UK, for example, with relatively little campaigning.

If years of bombarding the public with anti-trans news stories has made very little difference, what do you imagine will suddenly cause people to start agreeing with you?

I know it’s popular in transphobic circles to pretend that the facts are on your side, but they simply aren’t. If you’re interested in being correct, rather than merely sanctimonious, I’d suggest you try to look for evidence that you are wrong. This works in all areas of life.

When the two sides of this argument are evaluated side-by-side… it’s not close. Detransitioners? About 0.5% of patients who receive gender-affirming care come to regret it. Even the broadest definitions only get up to 8% - and in that study, 62% only “detransitioned” due to external pressure. Most studies of detransitioners put the % of trans people who detransition much lower (2% seems to be the typical figure) and the % who do so due to external pressure also much higher (75-95%).

A much larger group are denied access to medically-appropriate care because waiting lists are extremely long. In any case, as a liberal I don’t think the role of the state should be “protecting people from themselves” - if people want to pursue medical treatment, they should be allowed to. Unless there’s malpractice, suing a doctor for giving you the treatment you wanted is asinine.

Look, I get that most people like to portray themselves as the underdog. But your viewpoint is not being suppressed. It is the dominant viewpoint in the media. Sonia Sodha alone publishes more anti-trans columns than the rest of the Guardian publishes pro-trans columns, and it isn’t like she’s a lone voice. That’s the newspaper one would expect to be most pro-trans. Every other newspaper is worse. Even the BBC and the Economist are worse. If the BBC get someone on to give a pro-trans POV, they’ll also get someone on to give an anti-trans point of view, but the reverse is not true - there might be a note that “some people disagree”, but it’s usually useless (I’m thinking of Fiona Bruce telling Robert Winston that some people think you can change your chromosomes… no they don’t, Fiona!). You’re not being silenced, you’re the dominant point of view in the media… and yet apparently you’re not cutting through.

I don’t know, I think the sheer nastiness of the anti-trans side probably doesn’t help their cause. At this point, a large portion of the population knows a trans person. Constantly having our friends and family framed as “groomers” or “men in dresses” just isn’t going to work. I’m not talking about being mean on Twitter, I’m talking about things like this: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/04/euro ... index.html

If you stuck to just talking about sport, you wouldn’t convince everyone (the prophecies of trans women coming to dominate women’s sport turned out to be hyperbolic), but you could probably build a consensus. But when talk turns to “cults” and “groomers” and wanting to take away children’s access to healthcare, that drives people away.



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01 Dec 2022, 9:21 am

Quote:
Anyone Heard Of The Term Womanface ?

I have not. No.


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01 Dec 2022, 9:50 am

Another weird f-book trend?


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