Why there should be unions and workers' protections

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Do you feel unions should be revived?
Yes 69%  69%  [ 11 ]
No 31%  31%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 16

kraftiekortie
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29 Nov 2022, 8:32 am

https://nypost.com/2022/11/25/united-fu ... -sleeping/


The strength of unions has ebbed in the past few years. Many people are underemployed, and left destitute (e.g., wandering around from hotel room to hotel room) as a result. Something has got to give.



kraftiekortie
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29 Nov 2022, 9:07 am

https://thehill.com/policy/transportati ... ance%20pay.


At least some legal remedies for the "mass layoff phenomenon," and for "right to work" and "at-will employment" still exist.



PhosphorusDecree
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29 Nov 2022, 9:11 am

It baffles me how many ordinary people in Britain are implacably hostile to unions, while getting up in arms whenever billionaires face a tax rise. They are far more likely to be unfairly dismissed from their job than they are to ever become billionaires themselves.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Nov 2022, 9:28 am

There are certainly disadvantages to unions----but, overall, I feel the benefits far outweigh these disadvantages.



ASPartOfMe
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29 Nov 2022, 10:32 am

We had a middle class that was the backbone of the country when unions were at their strongest. Most workers were comfortable and were had job security, decent health plan, and an expectation of a pension upon retirement. After America decided unions were too greedy and corrupt and ditched them they lost most of that. The workplace became more dog eat dog, hatreds and insecurity increased as people and groups have had fight each other in an increasingly zero sum game country. Insecurity is one factor IMHO for people are acting more “insane”.

American unionism was capitalist not communist. Unions created a counter monopoly to the cooperate monopolies.

Interesting to see the interest in unions by Gen Z so many years after the movements heyday. Is it a fad or the beginning of a turnaround?


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29 Nov 2022, 3:55 pm

They're inefficient and often corrupt, yet another layer of bureaucracy between the workers and their paychecks with their hands out. I think they're mostly useful as a threat these days, as it's almost always cheaper just to pay the employees better than to risk having to deal with a union and all the hassle they bring.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Nov 2022, 4:07 pm

It’s true that unions are frequently corrupt in some way.

But they do frequently prevent arbitrary firings, which are legal under “employment-at-will” laws.



Dox47
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29 Nov 2022, 4:16 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s true that unions are frequently corrupt in some way.

But they do frequently prevent arbitrary firings, which are legal under “employment-at-will” laws.


Ever owned a business?


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Nades
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29 Nov 2022, 4:20 pm

They brought the UK to its knees in the past. They're like that annoying employee who asks for another pay rise a week after being given a pay rise.


I was speaking to some older tradesmen in work about their time in work when the unions were at their height. Apparently they used to go out on strike if the water was too cold in the toilets. They made operating a business almost impossible at one point.



Aspiegaming
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29 Nov 2022, 5:49 pm

Dox47 wrote:
They're inefficient and often corrupt, yet another layer of bureaucracy between the workers and their paychecks with their hands out. I think they're mostly useful as a threat these days, as it's almost always cheaper just to pay the employees better than to risk having to deal with a union and all the hassle they bring.


Most big businesses don't want to pay higher wages even though they make more than enough money to afford them. You don't like unions and yet I don't hear you giving an alternative that will guarantee protection of workers' rights and benefits. So let's hear it. What is your solution? Big businesses aren't willing to pay high wages and benefits and they own the government therefore don't expect them to help so what should be done?


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Mountain Goat
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29 Nov 2022, 6:05 pm

Unions are needed but there needs a sensible balance.
When unionism becomes too strong, one ends up in a communistic dictatorship. At the opposite end we have capitalism where if taken to the extremes will treat workers like slaves while trying to maxemize their profits when they have more profits than they could ever hope to spend in their lifetimes. Meanwhile even governments can be in poverty!

We actually need both extremes in government so that each can play off each other and keep each other in check so we end up politically speaking somewhere in the middle.

What is ultra dangerous politically speaking is to have a far left but no far right or to have a far right without a far left where other parties are in the middle, as there will be no one to oppose the opposite extreme view as only the extreme opposite view will oppose them.



Nades
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29 Nov 2022, 6:46 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
Unions are needed but there needs a sensible balance.
When unionism becomes too strong, one ends up in a communistic dictatorship. At the opposite end we have capitalism where if taken to the extremes will treat workers like slaves while trying to maxemize their profits when they have more profits than they could ever hope to spend in their lifetimes. Meanwhile even governments can be in poverty!

We actually need both extremes in government so that each can play off each other and keep each other in check so we end up politically speaking somewhere in the middle.

What is ultra dangerous politically speaking is to have a far left but no far right or to have a far right without a far left where other parties are in the middle, as there will be no one to oppose the opposite extreme view as only the extreme opposite view will oppose them.


I never felt the need to join a union at the moment. Workers rights here are honestly not that bad unless you're unfortunate enough to end up in unskilled, boiler house work. Broadly speaking any reputable company follows the laws pretty well.

The unions back in the day, along with there supporters became really nasty, unsavory people. People who were not in a union faced a lot of bullying from what I was told. You had to pick a side or be prepared to have both against you. It was spiteful workplace bullying that neither side benefited from and I imagine caused a lot of fights, sabotaging and job instability by driving employers into the ground left, right and centre.



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29 Nov 2022, 7:01 pm

Nades wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
Unions are needed but there needs a sensible balance.
When unionism becomes too strong, one ends up in a communistic dictatorship. At the opposite end we have capitalism where if taken to the extremes will treat workers like slaves while trying to maxemize their profits when they have more profits than they could ever hope to spend in their lifetimes. Meanwhile even governments can be in poverty!

We actually need both extremes in government so that each can play off each other and keep each other in check so we end up politically speaking somewhere in the middle.

What is ultra dangerous politically speaking is to have a far left but no far right or to have a far right without a far left where other parties are in the middle, as there will be no one to oppose the opposite extreme view as only the extreme opposite view will oppose them.


I never felt the need to join a union at the moment. Workers rights here are honestly not that bad unless you're unfortunate enough to end up in unskilled, boiler house work. Broadly speaking any reputable company follows the laws pretty well.

The unions back in the day, along with there supporters became really nasty, unsavory people. People who were not in a union faced a lot of bullying from what I was told. You had to pick a side or be prepared to have both against you. It was spiteful workplace bullying that neither side benefited from and I imagine caused a lot of fights, sabotaging and job instability by driving employers into the ground left, right and centre.


Unfortunately not in retail work where some serious exploitation goes on, but one can't get retail work like that if one is an union member as they ask on the application forms and refuse to employ union members.
Example. Minimum wage. Reality. Hours of compulsary unpaid overtime is worked each day which brings the wage down to half minimum wage.
Example.One thinks one is properly employed. Reality. Several years later one finds one was never on the company books despite it being a famous company and somehow one had wageslips.
I could go on and on as have had similar experiences via several different companies within the bicycle retail trade field and one had to work extra unpaid hours to keep ones job in every single one of them as it is a standard thing to do in the trade. Don't do it and one is sacked.

Farmworkers are even worse as they are exempt from minimum wage so many are self employed at £3 to £5 per hour (So their taxes come out of that) and they work 18 hour days 24/7 with maybe a day off each month and sometimes only a single lunch break during the day.



Nades
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29 Nov 2022, 7:09 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
Nades wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
Unions are needed but there needs a sensible balance.
When unionism becomes too strong, one ends up in a communistic dictatorship. At the opposite end we have capitalism where if taken to the extremes will treat workers like slaves while trying to maxemize their profits when they have more profits than they could ever hope to spend in their lifetimes. Meanwhile even governments can be in poverty!

We actually need both extremes in government so that each can play off each other and keep each other in check so we end up politically speaking somewhere in the middle.

What is ultra dangerous politically speaking is to have a far left but no far right or to have a far right without a far left where other parties are in the middle, as there will be no one to oppose the opposite extreme view as only the extreme opposite view will oppose them.


I never felt the need to join a union at the moment. Workers rights here are honestly not that bad unless you're unfortunate enough to end up in unskilled, boiler house work. Broadly speaking any reputable company follows the laws pretty well.

The unions back in the day, along with there supporters became really nasty, unsavory people. People who were not in a union faced a lot of bullying from what I was told. You had to pick a side or be prepared to have both against you. It was spiteful workplace bullying that neither side benefited from and I imagine caused a lot of fights, sabotaging and job instability by driving employers into the ground left, right and centre.


Unfortunately not in retail work where some serious exploitation goes on, but one can't get retail work like that if one is an union member as they ask on the application forms and refuse to employ union members.
Example. Minimum wage. Reality. Hours of compulsary unpaid overtime is worked each day which brings the wage down to half minimum wage.
Example.One thinks one is properly employed. Reality. Several years later one finds one was never on the company books despite it being a famous company and somehow one had wageslips.
I could go on and on as have had similar experiences via several different companies within the bicycle retail trade field and one had to work extra unpaid hours to keep ones job in every single one of them as it is a standard thing to do in the trade. Don't do it and one is sacked.

Farmworkers are even worse as they are exempt from minimum wage so many are self employed at £3 to £5 per hour (So their taxes come out of that) and they work 18 hour days 24/7 with maybe a day off each month and sometimes only a single lunch break during the day.


Is there any proof of any of this?



Mountain Goat
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29 Nov 2022, 7:18 pm

Yes. Happened to me in the bicycle trade.



Persephone29
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29 Nov 2022, 9:05 pm

I belong to a Union for educators. My husband has belonged to a Union for Elevator Mechanics for over 35 years. The only fault I have with them is that they protect the losers, as well as the good employees. And there are plenty of people who use their Union memberships to avoid getting taken to task for being subpar employees. These people help to give Unions a bad rep, I feel.


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