29 Jan 2023, 5:27 pm
Given wikipedia gives the average modern day tank autoloader at high speed of 8-12 rounds a min. In a Leopard Tank .For its main gun .And can engage multiple targets at once , aswell as plot and program and fire at top speed while tank is moving in a Leopard Tank . But think this is only short bursts because barrel heating issues.
Supposably has a greater range of fire by several thousand meters than the Russian tanks . 
Programmable
ammunition also. And can serve as mobile artillary. Due to main armourment characteristics .Wonder if the Russian armour can even hope match that ? But as with all Industial military complex controlled Nations , seems Germany is getting the outdated stuff used up , And Think they are making way for a new Panther Tank ..?
Just a fun fact : (Leopard tanks are a Porsche product .) So naturally they are air conditioned 
29 Jan 2023, 6:03 pm
Jakki wrote:
Oh boy , local news has reported this , about Tanks being sent to Ukraine . Millions of dollars apiece and all the support gear to keep them running .. ???? Gotta think about this , it seems that Tanks went out with fixxed position fighting . Like a Castle or a fort ..All you do is become a target to draw firepower from inside a sardine can ?
It kinda seems to me that this is like bringing a sword to a gunfight . Javelin , And Tow , and Laws single man operated missile system , Not sure if i should include the stinger missile( possibly a aerial threat devise.)
Brothers had a hobby of debating war type stuff .While growing up . Now days these systems are designed for armoured vehicles, to disable or destroy them." Really" they are sending tanks . Against missile systems .
Maybe the German tanks might survive ? They have pretty advanced defence / firing systems, i had read . Maybe it would turn the tide of a land based war.??? IMHO , but would not want to be in a Tank in a current Warzone.
Well it will be advantageous to the Industrial Military Complex, Inventory turn over, more profits, at least .
[IF YOU DO NOT COUNT the cost in Human Life], of course.!
It kinda seems to me that this is like bringing a sword to a gunfight . Javelin , And Tow , and Laws single man operated missile system , Not sure if i should include the stinger missile( possibly a aerial threat devise.)
Brothers had a hobby of debating war type stuff .While growing up . Now days these systems are designed for armoured vehicles, to disable or destroy them." Really" they are sending tanks . Against missile systems .
Maybe the German tanks might survive ? They have pretty advanced defence / firing systems, i had read . Maybe it would turn the tide of a land based war.??? IMHO , but would not want to be in a Tank in a current Warzone.
Well it will be advantageous to the Industrial Military Complex, Inventory turn over, more profits, at least .
[IF YOU DO NOT COUNT the cost in Human Life], of course.!
There will be infantry backup.
Once the tanks break through, they will leave the infantry behind and wreak havoc in the enemy's rear supply lines.
_________________
Laughter is the best medicine.
"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...
Glory to Ukraine.
29 Jan 2023, 6:07 pm
Highlander852456 wrote:
Heavy tanks have advantages and disadvantages.
The more the heavy machine is the more fuel it needs, the slower it is, the higher chance of getting stuck in terrain.
Advantages are pretty clear, from more ammo, more armor, more precision and punch in greater distance.
Since the news from Ukraine about battles is pretty spotty I don't know what these tanks mean to Ukraine.
But if they are asking for 400 tanks, at least, I bet they mean it.
Russian tanks are wider variety, and are trained in them.
It also means maintenance is easy as many tanks have interchangeable parts.
Russians know how to make good tanks, and cheaply.
I find claims that Russia has x amount of whatever dubious and rather just propaganda than serious information.
I bet Ukrainians know what they are facing, but I doubt the media more than the actual Ukrainian military.
Servicing different versions of tanks from different countries will be logistical nightmare, as well as each unit of tanks will have to have different training.
I really don't envy Ukraine this situation.
I was greatly surprised US decided to give Abrahams to Ukraine.
But these tanks require lot of refueling. They have turbine engines that eat up fuel like crazy. I also don't know if Ukraine military has what it takes to maintain them in combat.
That being said its a hell of good tank with good armor, despite it being extremely expensive and not so easy to take care of.
Leopard tanks are one of world best heavy tanks period.
UK tanks don't know anything about.
The more the heavy machine is the more fuel it needs, the slower it is, the higher chance of getting stuck in terrain.
Advantages are pretty clear, from more ammo, more armor, more precision and punch in greater distance.
Since the news from Ukraine about battles is pretty spotty I don't know what these tanks mean to Ukraine.
But if they are asking for 400 tanks, at least, I bet they mean it.
Russian tanks are wider variety, and are trained in them.
It also means maintenance is easy as many tanks have interchangeable parts.
Russians know how to make good tanks, and cheaply.
I find claims that Russia has x amount of whatever dubious and rather just propaganda than serious information.
I bet Ukrainians know what they are facing, but I doubt the media more than the actual Ukrainian military.
Servicing different versions of tanks from different countries will be logistical nightmare, as well as each unit of tanks will have to have different training.
I really don't envy Ukraine this situation.
I was greatly surprised US decided to give Abrahams to Ukraine.
But these tanks require lot of refueling. They have turbine engines that eat up fuel like crazy. I also don't know if Ukraine military has what it takes to maintain them in combat.
That being said its a hell of good tank with good armor, despite it being extremely expensive and not so easy to take care of.
Leopard tanks are one of world best heavy tanks period.
UK tanks don't know anything about.
Not from what I have heard.
Western tanks will eat the Russian tanks for breakfast.
_________________
Laughter is the best medicine.
"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...
Glory to Ukraine.
29 Jan 2023, 6:17 pm
goldfish21 wrote:
Canada is sending 4 tanks as well. No idea what kind, if we built them or bought them from the USA, but Canada is also on the list.
The USA is sending the most, IIRC, and overall it's something like ~60 tanks headed to Ukraine. When I heard that number I thought "In the grand scheme of the world and the scale of war, that doesn't seem like very many."
But I don't know much about tank warfare or war in general. I mean, I've played "Scorched Earth," and seen that Brad Pit movie "Fury." Maybe 60 tanks are a lot of tanks? Maybe today's tanks can do a lot more damage than the ones built for WW2? Maybe they can withstand more damage, too ? Maybe they just have to be slightly better than whatever russia is using in order to out-tank them by multiples ? 
The USA is sending the most, IIRC, and overall it's something like ~60 tanks headed to Ukraine. When I heard that number I thought "In the grand scheme of the world and the scale of war, that doesn't seem like very many."
But I don't know much about tank warfare or war in general. I mean, I've played "Scorched Earth," and seen that Brad Pit movie "Fury."
Maybe 60 tanks are a lot of tanks? Maybe today's tanks can do a lot more damage than the ones built for WW2? Maybe they can withstand more damage, too ? Maybe they just have to be slightly better than whatever russia is using in order to out-tank them by multiples ? They will concentrate their tanks in one offensive rather than spread them all over the front lines.
The Russians are rebuilding old tanks because of the international sanctions, and they will be no match for the high-tech western versions.
_________________
Laughter is the best medicine.
"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...
Glory to Ukraine.
29 Jan 2023, 6:55 pm
Jakki wrote:
Given wikipedia gives the average modern day tank autoloader at high speed of 8-12 rounds a min. In a Leopard Tank .For its main gun .And can engage multiple targets at once , aswell as plot and program and fire at top speed while tank is moving in a Leopard Tank . But think this is only short bursts because barrel heating issues.
Supposably has a greater range of fire by several thousand meters than the Russian tanks . Programmable
ammunition also. And can serve as mobile artillary. Due to main armourment characteristics .Wonder if the Russian armour can even hope match that ? But as with all Industial military complex controlled Nations , seems Germany is getting the outdated stuff used up , And Think they are making way for a new Panther Tank ..?
Just a fun fact : (Leopard tanks are a Porsche product .) So naturally they are air conditioned
Supposably has a greater range of fire by several thousand meters than the Russian tanks .
Programmable ammunition also. And can serve as mobile artillary. Due to main armourment characteristics .Wonder if the Russian armour can even hope match that ? But as with all Industial military complex controlled Nations , seems Germany is getting the outdated stuff used up , And Think they are making way for a new Panther Tank ..?
Just a fun fact : (Leopard tanks are a Porsche product .) So naturally they are air conditioned
Russian tanks aren't a match for the new western ones.
Even Russia's newest super tank is a dud because of all the problems it has.
They have very few in any event and presumably can't make more due to the sanctions, no matter how many Ukrainian washing machines they steal.
Quote:
The T-14 Armata (Russian: Т-14 «Армата»; industrial designation Russian: Объект 148, romanized: Ob'yekt 148, lit. 'Object 148'), is a Russian main battle tank (MBT) based on the Armata Universal Combat Platform.
The Russian Army initially planned to acquire 2,300 T-14s between 2015 and 2020.[11][12][13] By 2018, production and fiscal shortfalls delayed this to 2025,[14] before Russia announced the apparent cancellation of the main production run on 30 July 2018.[15] However, as of 2021, the Russian state-owned TASS media agency claimed the Armata had been expected to begin serial production in 2022, with delivery of a test batch of 100 to the 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division expected to begin in 2022.[16] The tanks are planned to only be officially transferred following completion of all state tests.[17][18][19][20] In December 2021 the Russian state conglomerate Rostec stated that serial production had commenced,[5] with "more than 40" Armata tanks anticipated to be delivered to Russian troops after 2023.[21]
The Russian Army initially planned to acquire 2,300 T-14s between 2015 and 2020.[11][12][13] By 2018, production and fiscal shortfalls delayed this to 2025,[14] before Russia announced the apparent cancellation of the main production run on 30 July 2018.[15] However, as of 2021, the Russian state-owned TASS media agency claimed the Armata had been expected to begin serial production in 2022, with delivery of a test batch of 100 to the 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division expected to begin in 2022.[16] The tanks are planned to only be officially transferred following completion of all state tests.[17][18][19][20] In December 2021 the Russian state conglomerate Rostec stated that serial production had commenced,[5] with "more than 40" Armata tanks anticipated to be delivered to Russian troops after 2023.[21]
_________________
Laughter is the best medicine.
"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...
Glory to Ukraine.
29 Jan 2023, 7:02 pm
Quote:
However, before its debut appearance in the 2015 Red Square parade in the Russian capital, the high-tech battle tank appeared to stop unexpectedly during a rehearsal. Speculation over a malfunction was quickly denied by its manufacturers.
In the years since it was announced, the T-14 "has been dogged with delays, reduction in planned fleet size, and reports of manufacturing problems," the U.K.'s MoD said on January 19.
A bigger, heavier tank than many of Russia's alternatives, the T-14 poses logistical issues whose deployment would be a "high-risk decision for Russia," the ministry added.
Considering Shoigu's confirmation of a "pilot" tranche, it continued, it is unlikely that any T-14 Armatas making their way to Ukraine "will have met the usual standards for new equipment to be deemed operational."
The MoD indicated reservations about the T-14 could also be down to hiccups with its engine and thermal imaging systems.
An appearance for the T-14 in Ukraine, therefore, would "likely primarily be for propaganda purposes," the MoD commented. "Production is probably only in the low tens, while commanders are unlikely to trust the vehicle in combat."
In the years since it was announced, the T-14 "has been dogged with delays, reduction in planned fleet size, and reports of manufacturing problems," the U.K.'s MoD said on January 19.
A bigger, heavier tank than many of Russia's alternatives, the T-14 poses logistical issues whose deployment would be a "high-risk decision for Russia," the ministry added.
Considering Shoigu's confirmation of a "pilot" tranche, it continued, it is unlikely that any T-14 Armatas making their way to Ukraine "will have met the usual standards for new equipment to be deemed operational."
The MoD indicated reservations about the T-14 could also be down to hiccups with its engine and thermal imaging systems.
An appearance for the T-14 in Ukraine, therefore, would "likely primarily be for propaganda purposes," the MoD commented. "Production is probably only in the low tens, while commanders are unlikely to trust the vehicle in combat."
https://www.newsweek.com/what-are-t-14- ... ne-1776512
_________________
Laughter is the best medicine.
"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...
Glory to Ukraine.
29 Jan 2023, 7:22 pm
Pepe wrote:
Not from what I have heard.
Western tanks will eat the Russian tanks for breakfast.
No you are right, western tanks are much better. But some of the tanks Ukraine has are Russian anyway.
The other point I wanted to make is it depends, but cheap tanks, means you can outgun your enemy.
What if Russian can mass 3 tanks against one leopard.
No matter how good the leopard is it will face 3 cannons and 3 moving targets.
It really depends how well trained the tank crew is, as well, how the Russian are spreading their forces.
I have heard all kinds of things in media.
But the Ukraine front is huge.
Few stories about this or that, are not convincing picture of the battlefield for me.
30 Jan 2023, 4:05 am
goldfish21 wrote:
magz wrote:
Tanks have "luxurious" active armour, precise fire systems, communication systems immune to jamming... yes, it costs that much. Civilian equivalents, even most luxurious, don't need to be operational in environment expected for tanks.
60 tanks is less than one brigade. In a war like that, it's enough to make up for losses of a few weeks.
USA promised 31 but it's probably only the first batch.
Canada is sending Leopards.
Poland has supplied over 260 tanks to Ukraine already, 14 Leopards and 30 PT-90 are promised currently. The only country that supplied more is... Russia, with over 400 captured.
60 tanks is less than one brigade. In a war like that, it's enough to make up for losses of a few weeks.
USA promised 31 but it's probably only the first batch.
Canada is sending Leopards.
Poland has supplied over 260 tanks to Ukraine already, 14 Leopards and 30 PT-90 are promised currently. The only country that supplied more is... Russia, with over 400 captured.
They set the Price that high, but there’s no way it Costs that much.
These are publicly traded for profit companies, not government owned and producing at cost.
Much like a $1200 iPhone probably Costs more like $150 to manufacture and ship. Or whatever, some amount far lower than the price.
"Government owned and producing at cost"
Sorry. I was born in a socialist country that still has strong state-owned sector - and nope. Governments aren't cost-efficient at all.
Unlike iPhones, tanks are small series products, which raises the cost of production a lot. Sure the manufacturers want to profit - but just like you can buy a reasonable smartphone for $150 if you give up the apple logo, think of all the developing countries that would love to produce and buy equivalents of Abrams for a fraction of its price - especially that 10 mediocre tanks are often worth more than 1 great one in the battle.
30 Jan 2023, 6:47 am
30 Jan 2023, 7:13 am
30 Jan 2023, 7:30 am
30 Jan 2023, 7:31 am
The historically-accurate insignia on the Leopard tanks is a nice touch. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard ... A6M_li.jpg
30 Jan 2023, 7:35 am
The logo of Bundeswehr?
Today it's not very different.
Colors changed, the shape is almost the same as in the 1980s.
30 Jan 2023, 7:37 am
Great match to the distinctly-shaped helmets they shipped earlier. 
30 Jan 2023, 7:40 am
30 Jan 2023, 7:43 am
| Similar Topics | |
|---|---|
| Protecting Gorillas by using tanks lol |
02 Jun 2023, 3:32 pm |
| Republicans candidates and Ukraine |
21 Mar 2023, 11:29 pm |
| Putin Indicted For War Crimes in Ukraine By The ICC |
19 Mar 2023, 9:55 am |
| Ben & Jerry’s Founder ‘Top Donor’ anti Ukraine aid |
30 Apr 2023, 12:59 pm |
