Christian but not feeling anything at times.

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That passage and others were an important part of my waking up process, too. I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness.

I don't believe "nationalism" had anything to do with it.

I feel like they were proud that they worship "one God," and that they had found the "one true God."

They believed polytheism was a more "primitive" mode of worship, and that they were at the vanguard of human advancement.

Have you actually read the entire account in Numbers?

This is not an attack on Jews. It’s just an example of horrific, human, tribal behavior.

No, I haven't.

But I would bet, like the Iliad, that this was written as a justification for the existence of their ethnic group, the struggle they had to go through to survive while being Greek. Which, I guess, is "nationalistic" in some sense.

But the situation in the Holy Land was more religious parochialism than nationalism, to me.

Chroniclers of that time did not subscribe to the same intellectual vigor that is imposed upon historians today.

Most people I know who are religious express, to a considerable extent, the thoughts that I expressed above. Even Muslims believe "The People of the Book" are superior to those whom they consider "pagan." Christians and Jews are considered "People of the Book," even through all the wars.

How can you comment on it and express how you feel about it without actually reading it? That is just really strange. I don’t get it.

Anyway, it’s an account about genocide. They are told to kill everyone, including infants and animals in a neighboring tribe and to keep the young virgins for themselves.

Last edited by Twilightprincess on 17 Feb 2023, 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

People are tribal and nationalistic, especially in ancient times. A decent deity should not be.

I wasn't commenting on "Numbers," per se.

I was commenting on the religious situation around the time the Abrahamic religion was founded.

There are very few "decent deities" who have an objective view of the world. These deities are, and were, a reflection of any particular ethnic group. Of course, in ancient times, people were almost always quite insular, and knew little about those outside their ethnic group.

I don't have any particular "love" for any particular deity.

That’s true, but this thread pertains to Bible-based religion.

If thats true, then how come Judaism was basically a religion you had to be born into? It was a religion and also an ethnicity.

In my view, their God was just another way of them feeling like they had the right to do whatever they want to others.

The "God is on our side" is a common trope of fascism.

That is interesting, did leaving cause significant difficulties? I find religions and cults interesting.

Yes! I was publicly humiliated because they announced that I had sinned from the platform of two Kingdom Halls (their name for their churches) even though I was struggling with my mental health at the time and told the elders about it. (I informed them that I had been through some trauma and they knew that I spent some time in a psych ward, but it didn’t matter. Bastards.) They told me that my sin of fornication was as bad as murder because it’s listed in the same scriptures as things God hates. I lost all of my friends and most of my family. I can relate 100% to the book The Scarlet Letter.

The existential crisis was the most difficult thing, though. My brain kept on saying: what if I’m wrong?? This went on for years.

Things got better with time and research. A couple family members woke up, too, which helps. My brother apologized for shunning me; we are now best friends. I’m still hounded by elders sometimes, though.

I feel bad for most of my family. They think that I’m going to die at Armageddon.

For some people, it is more important to express an ad hoc opinion that to know what they are talking about.

I bet they called it "Being Disfellowshipped".

Most non-JWs seem to call it "Shunning".

Either way, a it is terrible thing for an allegedly "Christian" organization to do to a member in need.

JWs refer to disfellowshipping as a “loving arrangement.”

They disapprove of other groups who do the same thing. It’s absurd. They feel they have the right because they have “the Truth.” It would be hysterical if it wasn’t sad.

If I remember correctly (and it’s been over 40 years since I got my BA in music history), the pagentry of the ancient catholic (read that as Christian) church had some influence on what is now the modern musical stage, be it Opera, Broadway, or the West end of London.

For example, I’m planning to sing Charles Gounod’s Repentir, better known as O divine Redeemer on Maundy Thursday. The text suggests a person, who is in extreme torment, praying to the Redeemer of this world for absolution. If the singer is to do this number right, he or she has to put him- or herself in this sinner’s place. Believe me, the only other time I sung this, I was totally drained. Even right now, when I’m rehearsing this number, I’m completely exhausted emotionally and close to a meltdown. Even listening to this piece being performed by somewhat akin to Renee Fleming, Jesseye Norman or Jussi Bjoerling starts the waterworks.

As an aside, I find that most contemporary Christian music, especially praise band charts, are essentially devoid of any kind of meaning, or scriptural use.

I guess it’s true what a former church music director, now retired, told me several years ago: he and I are dinosaurs, the last of a dying breed of musicians.

^I wish I had that sort of talent.

That anyone would want me to go on stage and sing classically.

I wouldn’t make it even in an elementary-school glee club.

Screw all who scorn you…and act like you KNOW you’re not some bum.