James Bond books edited to remove racist terms

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DeathFlowerKing
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28 Feb 2023, 4:06 pm

My mom is one of those women who enjoys crime shows where women get brutalized and I never understood why because she herself was a victim of violent crime.

And as a guy who was molested as a kid I personally can't stand scenes of rape or sexual torture on TV which is why even though I wanted to watch Game of Thrones as a fan of dark fantasy genre I could never really bring myself to fully watch it due to the graphic way they presented rape and torture. I don't understand how people like my mom who were also victims of sexual abuse can stand seeing that stuff. :|



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28 Feb 2023, 8:28 pm

While we modern readers might wince at certain passages written by the likes of Ian Fleming, Roald Dahl, H.P. Lovecraft, or Charles Bukowski, perhaps we should consider the context of the time said passages were written. Someday in the future, someone will look at the literature written in our time, and think us brutish bigots.


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28 Feb 2023, 8:51 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Books were from the 1950s and 60s so they probably do need an update.


Literature should never be revised to reflect popular culture. People can learn a lot about history by noting the changes that have occurred over time. If not, we can forget what it was like and those who forget history are doomed to repeated it.

Far better to use it as a teachable moment, then to pretend it never happened in the first place.



DanielW
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28 Feb 2023, 8:54 pm

Would you edit/censor Shakespeare or Chaucer because its too hard to read? Or actually try to learn something not only about the history, but the author?



cyberdad
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01 Mar 2023, 7:15 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I personally can't stand scenes of rape or sexual torture on TV which is why even though I wanted to watch Game of Thrones as a fan of dark fantasy genre I could never really bring myself to fully watch it due to the graphic way they presented rape and torture. I don't understand how people like my mom who were also victims of sexual abuse can stand seeing that stuff. :|


GOT was labelled as misogynistic due to the ample scenes involving female rape. When it was released the NY Times labelled GOT as "boy fiction" containing gratuitous sex, rape and debauchery (much of the first series was filmed inside brothels) designed to attract teenage male audience.

Yet the most reliable statistics indicate 42% of the viewership are women and 50% of all social media supporting GOT were from female users
https://www.wired.com/2013/06/women-game-of-thrones/



DeathFlowerKing
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01 Mar 2023, 7:40 am

cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I personally can't stand scenes of rape or sexual torture on TV which is why even though I wanted to watch Game of Thrones as a fan of dark fantasy genre I could never really bring myself to fully watch it due to the graphic way they presented rape and torture. I don't understand how people like my mom who were also victims of sexual abuse can stand seeing that stuff. :|


GOT was labelled as misogynistic due to the ample scenes involving female rape. When it was released the NY Times labelled GOT as "boy fiction" containing gratuitous sex, rape and debauchery (much of the first series was filmed inside brothels) designed to attract teenage male audience.

Yet the most reliable statistics indicate 42% of the viewership are women and 50% of all social media supporting GOT were from female users
https://www.wired.com/2013/06/women-game-of-thrones/


Maybe humans are attracted to seeing violence regardless of their gender? The Ancient Romans seemed to exploit this too when they forced gladiators to slaughter each other for entertainment.



cyberdad
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01 Mar 2023, 7:44 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Maybe humans are attracted to seeing violence regardless of their gender? The Ancient Romans seemed to exploit this too when they forced gladiators to slaughter each other for entertainment.


Freud had an answer for this 120 years ago. he said our base (biologically driven) desire is to seek out what is pleasurable and act aggressively to get what we want. This is tempered by conflict with a internal compass that is internalised in order to gain social acceptance we repress our desires and urges.

Television/fantasy/porn gives us an outlet...



DeathFlowerKing
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01 Mar 2023, 8:00 am

That actually makes sense.



ASPartOfMe
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01 Mar 2023, 1:14 pm

I have heard and read a number of women who have been victims describe say they have rape fantasies.


When Rape Survivors Have Rape Fantasies

Quote:
Six and Castellanos say enacting rape fantasies in search of liberation is not uncommon among rape survivors, who try to master their trauma by turning it into something positive. And it can yield positive results: “If they play out a rape fantasy and don’t get hurt or scared, [and] they only get aroused, it creates a positive interpretation of the action,” Castellanos says. “The fear and uncertainty gets replaced with an erotic association. It’s a way of rewriting history and claiming it,” says Six.

But Six also emphasises that everyone should process their trauma, and attempt to overcome it, in their own way. Some people, like Britni, need to have talk therapy first; for others, just acting on their fantasy helps them feel a sense of control.


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cyberdad
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01 Mar 2023, 2:48 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I have heard and read a number of women who have been victims describe say they have rape fantasies.


When Rape Survivors Have Rape Fantasies
Quote:
Six and Castellanos say enacting rape fantasies in search of liberation is not uncommon among rape survivors, who try to master their trauma by turning it into something positive. And it can yield positive results: “If they play out a rape fantasy and don’t get hurt or scared, [and] they only get aroused, it creates a positive interpretation of the action,” Castellanos says. “The fear and uncertainty gets replaced with an erotic association. It’s a way of rewriting history and claiming it,” says Six.

But Six also emphasises that everyone should process their trauma, and attempt to overcome it, in their own way. Some people, like Britni, need to have talk therapy first; for others, just acting on their fantasy helps them feel a sense of control.


I think this is what Freud would call a form of "catharsis" or perhaps exposure therapy almost.
But I think in the case of GOT female viewership there is something a little deeper at play. But pursuing this topic is fraught with danger and the threat of cancellation.



ASPartOfMe
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05 Mar 2023, 11:33 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Why not have a “historical” version and a censored version?


DW_a_mom wrote:
That seems like a fair suggestion.

Roald Dahl collection to be published in original form later this year
Quote:
Publisher Penguin Random House announced Friday it will publish "classic" versions of Roald Dahl's children's novels after it received criticism for cuts and rewrites that were intended to make the books suitable for modern readers.

Along with the new editions, the company said 17 of Dahl's books would be published in their original form later this year as "The Roald Dahl Classic Collection," so "readers will be free to choose which version of Dahl's stories they prefer."

The move comes after criticism of changes made to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and other much-loved classics for recent editions published under the company's Puffin children's label, in which passages relating to weight, mental health, gender and race were altered.

While tweaking old books for modern sensibilities is not a new phenomenon in publishing, the scale of the edits drew strong criticism from free-speech groups such as writers' organization PEN America, and from authors including Salman Rushdie.

"When it comes to our rich and varied literary heritage, the prime minister agrees with the BFG that you shouldn't gobblefunk around with words," a spokesperson for British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said this week, aping the word-twisting language used by Dahl's Big Friendly Giant.

Camilla, the Queen Consort, appeared to offer her view at a literary reception on Thursday. She urged writers to "remain true to your calling, unimpeded by those who may wish to curb the freedom of your expression or impose limits on your imagination."

Dahl, who died in 1990, is also a controversial figure because of antisemitic comments he made throughout his life. His family apologized in a statement in 2020.

Francesca Dow, managing director of Penguin Random House Children's, said the publisher had "listened to the debate over the past week which has reaffirmed the extraordinary power of Roald Dahl's books and the very real questions around how stories from another era can be kept relevant for each new generation."


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DW_a_mom
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05 Mar 2023, 8:49 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Camilla, the Queen Consort, appeared to offer her view at a literary reception on Thursday. She urged writers to "remain true to your calling, unimpeded by those who may wish to curb the freedom of your expression or impose limits on your imagination."


I think that works for writers creating works TODAY, but that doesn't mean they won't want to change that vision TOMORROW. Human beings grow and change, as does their perspective, and their creative vision.

My father was a very different man by the time he passed away from he was in my teen years. He regretted a lot; he would have changed a lot, if he could have.

Dahl would probably be appalled today by some of things he wrote and thought. However, given his aggressive style of writing, I don't think he'd soften quite as much as the current publisher seems inclined to.

It will be interesting to see who buys which versions. It's a tough thing, knowing how to present older material to generations that are immersed in (for the better, I believe) a different value system.

PS - referencing back to an earlier post, one of the useful things about being an older parent to relatively younger adult children is that those kids are good at bringing my generations perspectives to their peers. Not as an excuse, but to reduce snap assumptions. We need more of that.


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06 Mar 2023, 7:01 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Dahl would probably be appalled today by some of things he wrote and thought. However, given his aggressive style of writing, I don't think he'd soften quite as much as the current publisher seems inclined to..


This would be somewhat speculative though. For example the actor John Cleese made some questionable content in his early years of Monty Python. In the UK back in the 1970s Cleese was considered a progressive and somebody who poked fun at the establishment.

The reality was that Cleese was fervent conservative who enjoyed lampooning people with whom he was already familiar with. His real character started to leak out in his incredibly funny series "Fawlty Towers' when his character Basil Fawlty was a caricature of a social climber desperate for attention. The character meme would be played out in British TV with the rise of the popular series "Keeping up Appearances" with the character of Hyacinth Bucket a quintessential middle class woman who put on the worst cringeworthy attempts to climb the social ladder and be part of the establishment.

Both Dahl and Fleming were men of their time and their ideas/characters and tone were reflective of their own minds much more than we would like to reminisce.



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06 Mar 2023, 8:05 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I'm honestly more bothered by the fact that 007 has always treated women badly and has complete disregard for human life (what do you suppose having a "license to kill" actually means?).

To me he's nothing more than a symbol of toxic masculinity and no amount of censorship or blackwashing his character will ever change that.


Attack of the wokes lol.

The main problem of Bond movies is it instills a sense of paranoia in people, although in this day and age maybe the paranoia is justifiable.

James is actually relatively chivalrous in most cases its the villain of the movie trying to kill him at the end of the movie and often its an act of self-defense. I mean would you prefer bond to just tase people who are trying to nuke society, if someone has an AK47 and are shooting just tase them bro. (Tasers do not work well IRL anyway.)

As for the one night stands instead of long term dates, obviously thats to keep women safer, he gets married in one movie and then something bad happens, why would he date girls long term which is needlessly risky for them.



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06 Mar 2023, 8:10 am

cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
I personally can't stand scenes of rape or sexual torture on TV which is why even though I wanted to watch Game of Thrones as a fan of dark fantasy genre I could never really bring myself to fully watch it due to the graphic way they presented rape and torture. I don't understand how people like my mom who were also victims of sexual abuse can stand seeing that stuff. :|


GOT was labelled as misogynistic due to the ample scenes involving female rape. When it was released the NY Times labelled GOT as "boy fiction" containing gratuitous sex, rape and debauchery (much of the first series was filmed inside brothels) designed to attract teenage male audience.

Yet the most reliable statistics indicate 42% of the viewership are women and 50% of all social media supporting GOT were from female users
https://www.wired.com/2013/06/women-game-of-thrones/


GOT is garbage, an abomination, ban it. (Not being sarcastic here.)



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06 Mar 2023, 9:03 am

QuantumChemist wrote:
Live And Let Die (the 1973 movie) always seemed to have blatant racist overtones to me. I never liked it because of that issue.
The only good part of that movie was the song.


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