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Do you think that some people actually deserve to be bullied?
Yes 10%  10%  [ 32 ]
Yes 10%  10%  [ 32 ]
Maybe 4%  4%  [ 14 ]
Maybe 4%  4%  [ 14 ]
No 25%  25%  [ 85 ]
No 25%  25%  [ 85 ]
Judging from your examples, yes. 4%  4%  [ 15 ]
Judging from your examples, yes. 4%  4%  [ 15 ]
You're being unfair to the people in your examples 7%  7%  [ 22 ]
You're being unfair to the people in your examples 7%  7%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 336

Yupa
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18 Dec 2005, 8:59 am

Yes, well I acknowledge that bullying isn't nice, I've known a couple people who actually -did- deserve it. Case profiles? Let me provide two:

"John". Always talked about drugs and violence in class. If he wasn't threatening someone or bragging about his supposed mastery of the martial arts, he was making lame drug cracks at inopportune moments. It was pretty easy to guess that he had drugs on his brain.
If he saw a jar of salt he would say "That's cocaine" and he liked calling everyone a crackhead or pothead.
As for his love of violence, I once showed the class a picture I'd drawn in my spare time and said "Isn't this guy cool?"
And John said, "no, he's a dork. I want to beat the sh-t out of him."
He was verbally bullied by his peers, and he completely deserved it.

"Nick". Another classmate of mine. One of the most unhygienic ogres on the face of the planet. I call him an ogre because it'd be disgraceful to give him "human" status. He never bathed, never washed his underarms, never combed his hair, never wore underwear, always wore pants that kept sagging down almost past his waist in class, and once he wore a pair that was so big they fell down past his knees and everyone caught a glimpse of his privates. And you know what that little creep did? He -laughed- about it!
He also had a huge temper. He liked to throw stuff at people in class, and when someone tried to send him to the principal's office, if he didn't make some outlandish death threat, he would explode into a fit of 'WAAAAAAAAAAAH!! !! I WANT MY MOMMY!! !" or yell the F-word at the top of his lungs several times.
When he wasn't angry he was flapping his arms around and giggling through his hideous, gap-toothed grin.
He was a homophobe and a racist. Some of the stuff he said about gays, and some of the stuff he said about blacks or Asians, really, really annoyed me. It took effort not to sink to his level and punch him in his bug, puffy nose.
He was the very image of a big, pale, puffy monster and liked coming up with lame, half-baked excuses for his personality, like "My parents are divorced," "Mom never said I had to,"
"You're just mean to me because you're a big fat f--!" etc.
He was verbally and sometimes physically bullied, but I have to say he -definitely- earned it.



ljbouchard
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18 Dec 2005, 9:26 am

Yupa,

One of the regrets I have from my HS days is that at one time, I actually thought the way that you did. I now know that what I did was wrong.

It is never ok to sink to the level of the other person and bully them because they "deserve" it. In fact, when I was in middle school, I was partially one of your examples. The examples you gave are not going to learn correct behavior if they are bullied. They will simply say that they are being persecuted and that justifies their behavior. I bet if they had friends who cared about them, they may change their behavior.

It is never right to bully anyone. There is a quote that is on the tip of my tounge by a German priest about Nazi Germany and what happened when he stayed quiet. I am sure another user can say it.


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GalileoAce
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18 Dec 2005, 9:38 am

The first person in your examples did need a rebuke...But not Bullying.

And the second person CERTAINLY didn't NEED bullying...FFS...

Bully, in essence, is the physical and mental domination of others..as though their choices/beliefs/personality are irrelevant and/or do not matter...

Everyone does it, it might be very subtle, or a just "poking fun", or maybe it's full out violence..whatever it manifests as, it's still bullying, and it is a part of human culture...

I try to avoid being a bully whenever I can..Though I did catch myself bullying someone at school, and I felt so guilty and so wrong...that I walked away from the group of friends I was with...


Be it part of our culture or not...Bullying is wrong. Plain and Simple. There is no circumstance that you can present that would change my opinion on that.



Yupa
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18 Dec 2005, 9:38 am

ljbouchard wrote:
Yupa,


ljbouchard wrote:
It is never ok to sink to the level of the other person and bully them because they "deserve" it. In fact, when I was in middle school, I was partially one of your examples. The examples you gave are not going to learn correct behavior if they are bullied. They will simply say that they are being persecuted and that justifies their behavior. I bet if they had friends who cared about them, they may change their behavior.


ljbouchard wrote:
It is never right to bully anyone.


First:
Please don't adress me by my name, real name or screenname. I won't stand for that. fyi, I see that as a form of bullying.

Second:
The people I cited didn't -deserve- to have friends.
If they're pushed, they'll learn that it's not a good idea to say or do the kind of things that I cited.
Inaction around those people will just lead to them being encouraged.

Third: I myself have been a victim of bullying. But you know what I did? I stayed away from the idiots who thought they could verbally harass me, I made sure to scan, observe and judge people completely before thy could get anywhere near being my friends, and all worked out. It wouldn't work out for the people I cited because they haven't learned to free their minds from their obsessions with physical brutality. And I thought I made it perfectly clear that neither I nor my classmates 'sank to those peoples' levels'. I mentioned that I resisted that. I also mentioned that those people were mostly verbally criticized, which some of the more foolish might take for bullying. Perhaps I should've but "bullying" in quotation marks.



Yupa
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18 Dec 2005, 9:45 am

GalileoAce wrote:
The first person in your examples did need a rebuke...But not Bullying.

And the second person CERTAINLY didn't NEED bullying...FFS...

Be it part of our culture or not...Bullying is wrong. Plain and Simple. There is no circumstance that you can present that would change my opinion on that.


Not necessarily bullying so much as criticism, and constructive criticism at that.
And what do you mean the second person didn't need it?
He was a foul grotesque, and maybe some guidance would've solved that, but you know what? He was mean to everyone who offered him help.
You know what else?
When I casually mentioned that I had AS most people just said 'Oh, that's interesting', but he went into hysterics and made fun of the fact that "asperger's" sounded like "@ss burgers."
That was, of course, before people started bullying him, and one more reason not to like him.
I'm sorry, but he was a prime example of someone who needed to be verbally pushed around a little.
"If you don't like the way people respond to you, stop acting that way."
Anyone who pulls his pants down in class needs some form of punishment.



GalileoAce
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18 Dec 2005, 9:54 am

Yupa wrote:
First:
Please don't adress me by my name, real name or screenname. I won't stand for that. fyi, I see that as a form of bullying.


Yupa, how is that bullying?



Yupa wrote:
And I thought I made it perfectly clear that neither I nor my classmates 'sank to those peoples' levels'. I mentioned that I resisted that. I also mentioned that those people were mostly verbally criticized, which some of the more foolish might take for bullying. Perhaps I should've but "bullying" in quotation marks.


If people would be foolish to consider it bullying, why have you referred to it as bullying?

Yupa wrote:
Not necessarily bullying so much as criticism, and constructive criticism at that.


Again...If it's not bullying..why refer to it as such?

Yupa wrote:
And what do you mean the second person didn't need it?
He was a foul grotesque, and maybe some guidance would've solved that, but you know what? He was mean to everyone who offered him help.
You know what else?
When I casually mentioned that I had AS most people just said 'Oh, that's interesting', but he went into hysterics and made fun of the fact that "asperger's" sounded like "@ss burgers."
That was, of course, before people started bullying him, and one more reason not to like him.
I'm sorry, but he was a prime example of someone who needed to be verbally pushed around a little.
"If you don't like the way people respond to you, stop acting that way."
Anyone who pulls his pants down in class needs some form of punishment.


People like him probably need help, in a few areas... Bullying them because their behaviour doesn't meet the accepted standards is certainly not the answer...

And you know what? He probably does what he does simply to get a reaction, and bullying him..well that is a most certainly a strong reaction... You are far better off simply ignoring him.


GA



ljbouchard
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18 Dec 2005, 9:59 am

and it is up to you to punish the person if the rules forbid it and not the persons in charge of enforcing the rules. Who made you judge, jury, and executioner. Simply put, if you do not like the person, ignore them but do not go out of your way to make that persons life miserable.


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Sanityisoverrated
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18 Dec 2005, 11:10 am

It wouldn't surprise me if the two examples you gave probably already are or were the victims of bullying... who's to say their father doesn't come home in a drunken rage and beat them up every night?



eyeenteepee
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18 Dec 2005, 3:57 pm

No one ever deserves to be bullied.

How can one possibly make a value judgement about another human being that would suggest that person X is OKAY and that person Y is NOT OKAY and therefore should be bullied?

That is the kind of egotistical BS that many NTs get up to. I disagree with it and I hope any rational person would too.


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18 Dec 2005, 4:50 pm

Bullying has nothing to do with the victim. It's all about the bully and his (her?) need for power and domination.

Being bullied won't make kids change simply because they don't know how. They won't be able to figure out what they should stop doing to end the bullying. It's not a very effective method.



midge
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18 Dec 2005, 6:49 pm

I agree with everyone so far that bullying is wrong and never deserved. People who act out in ways similar to those you described in your case studies usually if not almost always have underlying issues and problems and bullying does not address them at all. To help people change their behavior, you have to go to the root of that behavior and start there, and bullying is so superficial it doesn't even come close. In many cases, abuse, including bullying, is a cycle-the bullied are in danger of acting like bullies later on. The only way to break the cycle is to stop the bullying. If one were to take a deeper look at them and find the root cause of their behavior (and I wouldn't be surprised if were abuse or neglect) they would probably find that these people really needed help. Bullying these people will probably only cause them to act out more, and if they are bullied for that, it will cause them to act out further, and so on-it's a vicious cycle. Not to mention that it will only make them even more miserable than they probably already are. :(



Yupa
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18 Dec 2005, 7:00 pm

eyeenteepee wrote:
How can one possibly make a value judgement about another human being that would suggest that person X is OKAY and that person Y is NOT OKAY and therefore should be bullied?.

People aren't and shouldn't be judged by social value, mental capacity, race, belief, or the clubs they join.
People are and should be judged by their personality.
If you screw yourself up bad and think it's okay, someone needs to remind you that you've taken the wrong path. That's what bullying is about, sorry to say.



ljbouchard
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18 Dec 2005, 8:33 pm

Quote:
First:
Please don't adress me by my name, real name or screenname. I won't stand for that. fyi, I see that as a form of bullying.


Quote:
If you screw yourself up bad and think it's okay, someone needs to remind you that you've taken the wrong path. That's what bullying is about, sorry to say.


Based on your example, I feel that not being able to call someone by their known name is screwing yourself up bad and taking the wrong path. Does that now give me the right to bully you by calling you by your first name?


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TheOrangeMage
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18 Dec 2005, 8:42 pm

Yupa wrote:
If you screw yourself up bad and think it's okay, someone needs to remind you that you've taken the wrong path. That's what bullying is about, sorry to say.


Well, "the wrong path" is a matter of peraonl preference. For Hitler, it was Jews, Mentally Handicapped, Gypsies, and others. For bullies, it's kids who don't fit in.



Yupa
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18 Dec 2005, 8:46 pm

TheOrangeMage wrote:
Well, "the wrong path" is a matter of peraonl preference. For Hitler, it was Jews, Mentally Handicapped, Gypsies, and others. For bullies, it's kids who don't fit in.


1.Hitler was a bigot and a general monster. He killed people for things they couldn't help, or because they had different beliefs and lifestyles.
Not because they did anything wrong.

2.I think you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying that people should go on a crusade, jihad or ethnic cleansing spree, I'm just saying that a few people need to be emotionally shaken up a bit to realize that they're doing something wrong and that they need need to change their ways.
Difference.
You shouldn't equate bullies with murderers. It's like the difference between a rat and an elephant.



fahreeq
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18 Dec 2005, 8:53 pm

Yupa wrote:
a few people need to be emotionally shaken up a bit to realize that they're doing something wrong and that they need need to change their ways.


People have used that same reasoning to justify bullying people on the autism spectrum. The people who view our behaviors as wrong are often the same ones who say things like "If you tried harder to fit in, you wouldn't be bullied as badly" and other crap like that.