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TPE2
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11 May 2009, 8:16 am

Probably everybody is already full of threads about "AS vs. SPD".

But there is a point that I want to make.

Only in the last days I understand some thing: some people in these forum who are in doubt if they have AS or SPD, apparently, consider having SPD as a "worse" thing that having AS.

Like I wrote in another place, I think that these don't make much sense: after all, aspies have all the social problems that schizoids have (and some aspies probably suffer more with them than schizoids) and some more aditional problems. And the levels of full-time work, independent living, etc. are much better for schizoids than for aspies (basically, SPD is little more than "extreme introversion").

And, although there is not any definitive answer one that, there are some reasons to think (and some authors are of that opinion) that "Asperger's Syndrome" is nothing more than "severe" SPD (or, if you wish, SPD is nothing more than "mild" AS).

It seems that some people have afraid of having SPD because it could develop in schizophrenia; but (afaik) the probability of this happen is so remote (althoug higher than in general population) that I think that is no reason to have afraid of being a schizoid-misdiagnosed-with-AS (of course, I admit that this is a very subjective question: from what level the probability of becoming schiziophrenic is enough to have afraid?).

I wonder if the problem that some people seems to have with SPD is not more because of the name ("schizoid") than about anything else?

My case (no formal diagnosis): if AS did not exist, I will be a run-of-the-mill schizoid; the descriptions of SPD in DSM and specially in ICD seems like a detective is following me and making a report. However, I have some traits (extreme fussy eater, always pacing or fiddling with objects, strong interest in some issues, clumisiness etc.) that makes me suspect that I am a mild/moderate case of AS that easily could pass by a schizoid if I want. Perhaps it is because this that I have a tendency to underestimate the differences between the two?



Danielismyname
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11 May 2009, 8:39 am

I'm also kinda confused that people think AS is better to have than Schizoid PD.... Schizoid PD is, as you say, introversion taken past the normal variation of such. The social deficits in AS are far more striking and disabling than those in SPD. I'd much rather just have SPD (having an ASD means that I do also have such).

As you said again, it's best to think of Schizoid PD as "mild" AS, and Lorna Wing is of this position (the lady who defined AS what it is today).

Perhaps Schizoid PD will be the next big "disorder of the year".



MathGirl
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11 May 2009, 10:30 am

In Russia, "schizoid" is actually an insult and a synonym for "crazy".



Aimless
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11 May 2009, 10:42 am

I had a very negative reaction to finding out I was diagnosed with SPD as a child, but perhaps that is due to a misunderstanding of the term. I read it as being emotionally dead and thus incapable of close relationships. While I do have major intimacy issues, I like to think I can eventually overcome those. A diagnosis of SPD from what I read on one of the sites indicates someone so emotionally damaged that there is no hope. I think it triggered a deep seated grief I seem to have. My self esteem was so bad as a child I couldn't imagine why anyone would want to know me. I don't know where that came from;I don't know if I've forgotten a traumatic event or if it's just the way I'm genetically wired. My father, for instance, tried to hang himself when he was 9. Possibly because I was punished for something I couldn't control (bedwetting). So the thought that I was permanently damaged scared me. So is the extreme introversion due to difficulty in managing social situations or is it from a general contempt for the human race? I think I have developed some SPD habits but I also think I wasn't diagnosed with Asperger's because people weren't aware of it as a diagnosable condition at the time. This was back when they were still talking about "refrigerator mothers". So does cause matter if the effect is the same? I guess it does to me.



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11 May 2009, 10:56 am

Well, I'd be a tad offended if someone were to try re-diagnosing me as SPD.

I sincerely doubt the symptoms that are disabling me are supposed to be as severe (or not even present) in SPD. And a diagnosis of SPD would probably also mean people would suggest that symptoms of SPD disable me that I don't have or can cope with.

I really don't see the majority of those with SPD fulfil criteria for classical autism but I do. If I were associated with a group of people with SPD that doesn't even fulfil classical autism criteria, then others would get the wrong idea of my autism.


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MinorAnnoyance
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11 May 2009, 11:16 am

MathGirl wrote:
In Russia, "schizoid" is actually an insult and a synonym for "crazy".
Worst Yakov Smirnoff joke ever.



mikemmlj
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11 May 2009, 1:34 pm

I am afraid of SPD because I know nothing about it. I think of the movie "A Beautiful Mind" when I think of it and that is all. So would I rather be Josh Hartnett in "Mozart and the Whale" or Russell Crowe in "A Beautiful Mind?"


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TPE2
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11 May 2009, 1:59 pm

Aimless wrote:
So is the extreme introversion due to difficulty in managing social situations or is it from a general contempt for the human race?


I think that is not supposed to be nor "difficulty in managing social situations" nor "general contempt for the human race?"; it is supposed to be, simply, low (in extreme, null) desire to socialize. Well, perhaps it is this that you call "general contempt for the human race", but I think that are different things: "general contempt..." is a more "active" thing, it means thay you have some attitude tward other people that makes you to have a desire of not interact with them; in the case of schizoids, I think it is more a "passive" thing: it is more a lack of desire to socialize than exactly a desire of not socialize.

My explanation is a bit confuse, but I hope that you could understand what I am saying.



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11 May 2009, 2:31 pm

TPE2 wrote:
I wonder if the problem that some people seems to have with SPD is not more because of the name ("schizoid") than about anything else?


I think that's probably it. "Schizo" or "schizoid" are sometimes used in slang to substitute for the word "crazy". I don't think anyone would want to be connected to something that they think is crazy. Also, with some of the descriptions of SPD on the internet, it makes them all sound like cold & careless people. Even if that's true or even if it's not, I don't think anyone would want to be told that they are cold & careless.


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obnoxiously-me
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11 May 2009, 5:14 pm

mikemmlj wrote:
I am afraid of SPD because I know nothing about it. I think of the movie "A Beautiful Mind" when I think of it and that is all. So would I rather be Josh Hartnett in "Mozart and the Whale" or Russell Crowe in "A Beautiful Mind?"


I guess it's like that with everything: we fear that which is unknown.

But a diagnosis doesn't make a person. Luckily or unluckily we are ourselves no matter what.

It is not up to me to fit into the stereotypical behavioral pattern or thinking pattern of my diagnosis, whatever it is. If so I would truly go crazy, as I've had them all at one time or another.

For many these diagnosis's we are put upon and put ourselves upon end up with a game of who has it worse, who are we better than, who are we lower than. But isn't that just wasting our time? We need to love and accept ourselves, just like we need to meet the world with respect for their suffering and their struggles.

Because of my brain I am forced into a very specific path in life. I struggle with things that for others are no problem what so ever. But in my struggle there is also a great gift. The limitations of my life is forcing me to live a very specific way, yet opens up for possibilities that for 'normals' aren't achievable.

</end of rambling>



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11 May 2009, 5:33 pm

I was originally diagnosed with Schizoid personality disorder, only three years later getting the AS diagnosis. Personality disorders seem to me a fairly outdated concept, throw back to Freud, whereas AS seems far better grounded. Obviously, some people have personalities closer to Schizoid descriptions and some to AS descriptions but unless you are just going for classification (which is all the DSM and ICD aim for) then you'd hope these differences ultimately reflect some biological/genetic/chemical/neurological difference. I think AS does, even if the evidence doesn't come much from the biological/genetic/chemical/neurological domains, whereas I don't think Schizoid has the evidence to support it. Perhaps because Schizoids are actually just on the autistic spectrum but equally possible they are something unique, just nothing psychiatry has been very successful at describing.



TPE2
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11 May 2009, 5:59 pm

mikemmlj wrote:
I am afraid of SPD because I know nothing about it. I think of the movie "A Beautiful Mind" when I think of it and that is all. So would I rather be Josh Hartnett in "Mozart and the Whale" or Russell Crowe in "A Beautiful Mind?"


I can't remember of any movie that could be a good example of Schizoid PD. Probably a movie about a schizoid will be very boring (what the main characther will do? Read and think all the time?).

Some people cite "The English Patient", but I never saw that film.



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11 May 2009, 6:42 pm

Well, I guess it was a purely emotional reaction to something I didn't fully understand. However, I do read and think all the time :?
When I'm not napping,that is. :)



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11 May 2009, 9:26 pm

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TPE2
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12 May 2009, 4:21 am

oppositedirection wrote:
I was originally diagnosed with Schizoid personality disorder, only three years later getting the AS diagnosis. Personality disorders seem to me a fairly outdated concept, throw back to Freud, whereas AS seems far better grounded. Obviously, some people have personalities closer to Schizoid descriptions and some to AS descriptions but unless you are just going for classification (which is all the DSM and ICD aim for) then you'd hope these differences ultimately reflect some biological/genetic/chemical/neurological difference. I think AS does, even if the evidence doesn't come much from the biological/genetic/chemical/neurological domains, whereas I don't think Schizoid has the evidence to support it. Perhaps because Schizoids are actually just on the autistic spectrum but equally possible they are something unique, just nothing psychiatry has been very successful at describing.


For me, the concept of "personality disorders" seems much more solid than the concept of AS. In most PDs (not all - schizotypal and borderline, for example, seems much made-up conditions), you have a clear, "core" definition of what they are: SPD - extreme preferecence for internal word vs. social interaction; Narcisitic PD - extreme desire of being the center of the attention; Avoidant PD - being afraid of social situations; Obsessive Compulsive PD - obsession to follow rules and perfectionism, etc.

In contrat, in AS, you don't have really a "core definition" of what AS really is. The only thing you have it is a list of symptoms.



Sora
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12 May 2009, 9:34 am

TPE2 wrote:
In contrat, in AS, you don't have really a "core definition" of what AS really is. The only thing you have it is a list of symptoms.


Sure you have. It's called triad of impairments.

If it's not there, it can't be a PDD and thus cannot be AS. Simple as that.


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